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Story points are pointless, measure queues

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Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this may not be fair, but you lost me quite a bit with the positive take on SAFe, which is the worst, most unproductive experience of any process I’ve had. I also do not understand the queues and capacity issue. I have never been in an environment where we do not have so much work that we cannot meaningfully see past the end of the queue. I don’t necessarily view that as a bad thing.

I’ve read the horror stories on here and I understand. There’s what it is supposed to be, what is taught and how it ends up. Rigidity is probably the biggest issue. It’s supposed to be adapted to an organization leveraging what works well, handing more control to developers and addressing some communication gaps. When people try to implement it strictly and force the company into the example template it creates a lot…

I do totally agree on the SAFe bits. I've seen it implemented extremely well when 1) everyone got regular training (biannually or quarterly) and 2) senior leaders adopted their appropriate SAFe roles.

Quite often i see organizations do a SAFe kickoff and then nobody ever learns more about it and senior leaders view it as a team level thing only. It doesn't work then because nobody's actually doing it.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#253
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So story points work when they are used as an internal tool for a team to understand themselves. And story points don't work when they are a tool used to communicate to the external world outside the team.

They are good for 'hey can I get this crap done in a sprint'. Once someone starts measuring it for 'how good a team is' that is when it falls apart. One teams points almost always do not equal another teams points either. Agile has a TON of anti-patterns that look good to do and are enticing to do. But in the end are self destructive. Usually making it about the process instead of 'I have X amount of work and Y numbe…

Story Points are inherently team specific as is Velocity. Trying to normalize them across an org for the purposes of a performance metric is folly. Velocity should be used internally on the team when doing timeline estimations, but exposing that outside the team is, again, folly. Even on a singular team, SP and V are subject to small drift or large corrections based on team makeup, time of year, or numerous other metrics. They are simply a planning estimation tool. As others have pointed out, the act of assigning SPs is a useful tool itself as it requires a team to collaboratively estimate complexity and it frequently helps surface miscommunication and missing details.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In terms of having utility of estimating how long something will take, I personally have never been able to translate story points into a reliable indicator for that for many reasons (e.g team changing, domain changing, variability in operational load outside of development work). If your measure of the utility of story points is how well they help you estimate time, then you're right, they're useless to you. If you…

>back-of-the-envelope way to estimate which bits of validated functionality you're going to be able to get into the codebase this sprint >help you estimate time How are these different?

Only one requires an overpaid clown (SCRUM master/Program Manager/etc) to do the unit conversion.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> points are needed because it's convenient to do reports based off of it So, you’re saying it’s convenient for management , yes? Making things convenient for management at the expense of the front-line workers inverts the priorities of a company. The managers ought to be working harder to make things as efficient and convenient for the workers to build the right thing. Putting management first is the stupidest thing…

>So, you’re saying it’s convenient for management, yes? Making things convenient for management at the expense of the front-line workers inverts the priorities of a company. You'd end up having a points system whether you like it or not. If it wasn't story points, it'd be days/weeks/months estimates. Almost nowhere you will find "it's done when it's done, don't bother me until it's done" as an option for a developer.…

You, like tbrownaw, are arguing against something I didn't say. (Please go read the sibling thread.) I didn't say that planning, goals, etc. are bad. What I said was that story points lead to bad plans because they oversimplify the complexities of software development. A project timeline can be fine—but only if it is born out of a nuanced discussion and not by adding up a bunch of unitless points.

Developers (at least, ones like me) despise story points because they ask developers to collapse a ton of nuance and detail into a single scalar. It’s about as meaningful as this comparison of food recipes: compress the cook time, number of ingredients, cost of ingredients, quality of ingredients, whether or not some of the ingredients are allergens, and how much you like the food independent of the weather and your mood into a single scalar value and using that to plan what you will eat during the week. Madness!

Story points can enable corporate despotism. Bad managers who demand developers make up story points, and then turn around and use that to dictate what developers will work on—without engaging in a thoughtful discussion on what is feasible and what will keep the product stable—are on a power trip and are treating developers like cogs in a machine. They know the price of everything, but the value of nothing.

The good managers that I have had in the past regularly discussed with the dev team what was needed and—with the developers' input and without artificially compressing the complexities of the task at hand—set good goals that gave the dev team focus and direction.

Using story points is lazy management.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#256
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it seems like it's fairly common for people/teams to follow the idea that any story that is 8 or more points should be broken down to tasks of 5 or less. This simply doesn't make sense to me. If the most simple task is 1 point, is your most complex task allowed really only 5 times as complex? Story points usually follow an exponential increase for a reason, enforcing staying in the mostly linear portion is just…

The idea is that if a task is that large can you really not break it down into smaller steps? Do we understand the problem well enough to implement or are we hand waving over likely areas of complexity? Maybe if you tried to break it down you'd realise that the 21 point card is actually more like 10+ 5 points tasks and you had just though "big" not "I know what needs to be done and can size this accurately". Doesn't…

> Maybe if you tried to break it down you'd realise that the 21 point card is actually more like 10+ 5 points tasks

It didn't even occur to me think of it this way, because the times I've been exposed to breaking down tasks the total number of points stayed constant. 13 pointers becoming an 8 and a 5, and the 8 pointer becoming a 5 and a 3.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve read the horror stories on here and I understand. There’s what it is supposed to be, what is taught and how it ends up. Rigidity is probably the biggest issue. It’s supposed to be adapted to an organization leveraging what works well, handing more control to developers and addressing some communication gaps. When people try to implement it strictly and force the company into the example template it creates a lot…

I do totally agree on the SAFe bits. I've seen it implemented extremely well when 1) everyone got regular training (biannually or quarterly) and 2) senior leaders adopted their appropriate SAFe roles. Quite often i see organizations do a SAFe kickoff and then nobody ever learns more about it and senior leaders view it as a team level thing only. It doesn't work then because nobody's actually doing it.

Having senior leadership on board is critical to the entire process.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see that perspective I suppose, but it's certainly not marketing flame bait. Whatever story ports were always supposed to be, they aren't. Numerous people's real world experiences go sideways, because of the way that they are designed. You're setup for failure and confusion. I never claimed to invent anything. I'm highlighting Donald Reinertsen's work that more people should be following. The purpose of the art…

So this may not be fair, but you lost me quite a bit with the positive take on SAFe, which is the worst, most unproductive experience of any process I’ve had. I also do not understand the queues and capacity issue. I have never been in an environment where we do not have so much work that we cannot meaningfully see past the end of the queue. I don’t necessarily view that as a bad thing.

Alright, comment part 2 since I have a little more time now.

First, the SAFe explanation. I've been a software developer for a little over 22 years. My first experience managing a team was 12 years ago and I shifted to it full time in 2018. My entire motivation for doing this was living through environments that were painful and unproductive for everyone involved.

I found Reinertsen during a lot of reading when I was trying to learn the best ways to do things and get a clearer picture of things that I didn't understand because I hadn't had a view of them in my dev/arch/ops roles previously. When I picked up that book I periodically shouted, "YES! EXACTLY!" while I was reading because it showed the math to prove just about everything I'd experienced. Then I used his methodologies to lead two teams with a great deal of success from my perspective.

What I was not doing a good job of was communicating with the business side of the company regarding what was prioritized, why and how. That lead to a lot of back channel grumbling from other people in leadership who had different priorities. I'd just spent months talking with everybody about what their priorities were and mapped out a plan to have it all done in about 6 months. I was extremely confident in this plan at the time. It was beautiful.

One of the senior guys, who I will call "Squeaky Wheel" torpedoed the plan because his top priority wasn't first. That was the moment that I realized I needed to find a better way to get these folks involved in the process that wouldn't blow up all of the great things we had happening.

Long story short, I found SAFe and the CEO sent me for training after I explained my rationale. Here's what appealed to me about it.

1. WSJF - All facets of the company come together to agree upon the value of different initiatives. Sales, Support, Product, Legal, Marketing and other senior leadership when necessary. Following the discussion all of the back channel "we should be doing this" stops because everybody knows exactly why we're doing what we're doing.

Then you combine that with an effort estimate to get a projection about the best value for your time. This will naturally end up prioritizing a bunch of small stuff that has been ignored for a while first, but once you get through that you start more cohesive conversations about larger initiatives. In that first experience, Squeaky Wheel had a low value high effort project that went to the bottom. Aside from him, it went beautifully for everybody else.

2. The PI process - After people have put in the effort to agree on priorities, PI planning happens where Dev gets to lay out the plan for the best way to achieve those priorities. You spent a couple of days planning it, presenting, reviewing and everybody comes out knowinng what the priorities are for the next 8-12 weeks. Then as a dev you get to execute without dramatic shifts in direction. Now, when somebody in sales doesn't close and tries to make a case to change everything you're doing he's directed to make a case to product for WSJF consideration for the next PI. This brings sanity to the dev process.

The PI plan also involves capacity planning so you build in a natural buffer too. As a side benefit, you find out most of the vacation plans of your teams over the next quarter well in advance. One of the big goals of PI Planning is building camaraderie and skipping future meetings with people who may need to provide input. This factor is significantly more difficult in a remote environment.

3. The "Solution" Backlog - Part of the process is that dev gets to keep and prioritize its own backlog of technical priorities for the next PI. You typically split the capacity planning 70/30 or 80/20 across the Feature/Solution backlog. This gives the tech side of the house the ability to ensure work that they know needs to be done, gets done without having to make a case to the business about why. This gives time to improve processes, automation, reduce tech debt, refactor, performance tune, etc if it hasn't already been built in.

When those 3 things happen every developer's life should get easier. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way and you'll end up with more layers of control + dictation rather than handing over control to interested parties.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#259
post #10

Story points aren't time (as OP states). They're relative complexity, and uncertainty (hence the fibbonacci sequence building uncertainty in to larger numbers). And stories should be able to sized as big numbers. I've never been on a team comfortable with more than a 7, at least not since my first agile experience where we all took an agile/scrum training together for a few days. We'd frequently give things like 21 o…

I agree - just countless times I have to beat that up into peoples head and even people who I would consider smart "points time". After the sprint you can kind of infer the time but it should not be guideline for next estimations unless these are tasks like "fix typos".

Points are almost worthless as they can be gamed.

We're judged on delivery. Measured by time. Complexity is arbitrary.

If points aren't time bound why am I limited on the amount of points I can take? Every team had a max point load. If there's no stick for rollovers then you're Kanban.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see that perspective I suppose, but it's certainly not marketing flame bait. Whatever story ports were always supposed to be, they aren't. Numerous people's real world experiences go sideways, because of the way that they are designed. You're setup for failure and confusion. I never claimed to invent anything. I'm highlighting Donald Reinertsen's work that more people should be following. The purpose of the art…

So this may not be fair, but you lost me quite a bit with the positive take on SAFe, which is the worst, most unproductive experience of any process I’ve had. I also do not understand the queues and capacity issue. I have never been in an environment where we do not have so much work that we cannot meaningfully see past the end of the queue. I don’t necessarily view that as a bad thing.

Finally, Queues and Capacity.

There will always be something else to do, that is definitely true. In this context we are talking about taking a chunk of that and trying to create an expectation of when it can be ready.

In a Sprint, for example, you take a slice of work from that queue, a few stories with the goal of trying to get it completed in the next couple of weeks (hopefully). That creates a new queue for the sprint, essentially.

You've controlled the flow of work based on the teams historic capacity using some metric, which has previously been velocity.

Overloading that capacity is what happens when new work sneaks in. Support items. Requests from people outside the team. Long meetings. A team member unexpectedly being out. Either the amount of work has gone up or capacity has gone down. If anything that was planned is much larger than initially expected, you're going to end up way behind. That will push everything else farther behind at the same time.

The moment you start scrambling to try to get it all done, you're going to start making mistakes. People are not going to take the time to refine things. Errors will happen. They'll take longer to fix or worse they'll end up in production and create new problems...that will create more unplanned work for the next time.

Hope that helps?

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