Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree - just countless times I have to beat that up into peoples head and even people who I would consider smart "points time". After the sprint you can kind of infer the time but it should not be guideline for next estimations unless these are tasks like "fix typos".
I continue to treat story points as a measure of time, despite being told repeatedly they're definitely not time. I will continue doing this until someone can explain to me, in a way I can understand, what they actually are that is not time.
Story points are pointless, measure queues
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Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues
#62The fundamental issue isn't addressed but it sure is hinted at. Scheduling is an NP problem. As queue size, or backlog, or (insert thing here that tracks work to be done) grows it takes n^p calculations to schedule it optimally. This is hit on when it mentions small teams hitting their estimates. They can do this because their task list is small enough to go through all the permutations and actually come up with an a…
That isn't what NP means. (An O(n^p) algorithm would in fact be in P.)
Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues
#63I had a terrible experience with them once. I was a relatively new, enthusiastic engineer on a struggling team of guys who'd been at the company a long time and were pretty burnt out. Inevitably I started getting all the "hard" stories with a lot of points, til it got to some stupid point where I was outputting about 80-90% of our team's combined story points. Management caught wind of it, didn't like it, so what they decided to do was adjust my points "downward" to be more in line with the rest of my team's output. It really irritated me, because it'd result in absurd situations where my teammates would get a "3 point" ticket that was like, just updating some field in a config file to an already-known value and checking it in somewhere, and I'd get this whole-ass project wrapped in a single ticket and they'd give me the same amount of points for it. And of course this was tied in to performance reviews, adding to how annoying it was.
Another super irritating thing that would happen is I'd be asked to estimate complexity on some super vaguely defined ticket describing some problem that would take a lot of detective work to even figure out how to solve, so how am I supposed to give an accurate estimate of complexity? If I knew that much, I'd already have probably fixed whatever the issue was.
Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues
#64My personal experience with story points is that the number never really mattered, but the process of the team discussing how to rate the complexity of a task was very useful. In terms of having utility of estimating how long something will take, I personally have never been able to translate story points into a reliable indicator for that for many reasons (e.g team changing, domain changing, variability in operation…
> I personally have never been able to translate story points into a reliable indicator You haven't discovered the secret formula: make your estimate and then mindlessly triple it.
Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues
#65Story point allocation can be useful to give a quick and easy 'good enough' estimation of time/effort required for a significant chunk of work (epic).
I find that this approximate approach is almost always more accurate than trying to estimate every little task.
If the project manager and engineers try to break down a project into small granular tasks with time estimates then it's almost inevitable that the effort will be underestimated because it's virtually impossible to anticipate every sub task, blocker, unforseen delay, etc (and then there's the extra time it takes to manage all these micro tasks in your PM system!).
In such situations the old project manager trick of doubling all estimates tends to provide a more accurate timeframe.
This is why story points can be more accurate: because you are estimating the effort it takes to do something relative to your previous experience of similar workloads.
So, if you avoid estimating granular tasks and keep your estimates as the approximate amount of effort relative to something you've done before, then you will end up with a more realistic timeframe. Story points can help with this mindset. Also your team will not have to waste time faffing around in Jira too much, or whatever system you use.
Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues
#66Story points aren't time (as OP states). They're relative complexity, and uncertainty (hence the fibbonacci sequence building uncertainty in to larger numbers). And stories should be able to sized as big numbers. I've never been on a team comfortable with more than a 7, at least not since my first agile experience where we all took an agile/scrum training together for a few days. We'd frequently give things like 21 o…
Yeah, it seems like it's fairly common for people/teams to follow the idea that any story that is 8 or more points should be broken down to tasks of 5 or less. This simply doesn't make sense to me. If the most simple task is 1 point, is your most complex task allowed really only 5 times as complex? Story points usually follow an exponential increase for a reason, enforcing staying in the mostly linear portion is just…
Doesn't mean these cases never occur but it's worth seeing if it's actually smaller related pieces of work.
Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues
#67The post is correct about some problems but completely wrong about solutions. Breaking down tasks that are already sub-sprint-sized in a meeting is the wrong way to do it; you'll put the boundaries in the wrong place and end up duplicating work, and then going overtime when the integration stage takes longer than you thought it would. The right place to do that breakdown is agile, just-in-time: give one person or pai…
Because people (customers and managers in particular, but not just them) want to plan ahead, they can't escape the optimistic (and usually wrong) planning mode of BDUF projects. They fear uncertainty and want to know, at a glance, how long the work will take based on their current backlog/queue/whatever. Customers don't like to be told "We'll deliver when we deliver" so managers (salespeople) give an optimistic schedule now based on today's staffing (and optimistic assumptions about future staffing levels and future staff abilities).
If they'd spend 5 seconds thinking they'd realize they can produce and deliver most (but not all) systems in an incremental fashion that will satisfy the customers while leaving key decisions and estimations to be made when there's enough information to actually make them. But that takes 5 seconds and that's too damned long.
Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues
#68In my experience, story points allow forecasting that's as good as any forecasting method I've ever used. And I've used pretty much every schedule forecasting method over my long career.
The author touches on many of the reasons why story points don't work. And pretty much every reason he gives is something that you are not supposed to do.
The key to getting them to work is trust, and a commitment to never use story points as metrics to measure the performance of developers. Any attempt to do so will result in gaming of the system. The tradeoff that stories provide is lack of precision in exchange for not having to spend 50% of your development cycle up front doing detailed analysis required to provide detailed estimates (which never worked anyway).
Things you must also never do:
- compare calibrated burndown factors between teams.
- Ask why the calibration factor isn't N. THe calibration factor is.
- Have stories with more than N story points (where N is 3 or 5). Decompose them.
- Introduce the least bit of stress.
- Use burndown rates to generate commitments, instead of forecasts.
- Use forecast results to justify asking developers to work overtime.
The last point, I think, is particularly interesting. The manager who was my first scrum master made the following commitment to us: you will never work overtime again. And voluntarily working overtime will be consider a bad thing, not a good thing, since it impairs predictability of the team's productivity. "I know you don't believe me", he said. But he was right. We never worked overtime again.
Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> No bonuses for higher velocity is the real reason no one takes it seriously. Bonuses for higher velocity based on guessed story points would be an even bigger reason for not taking it seriously - or rather to overestimate everything in order to gain the impression of higher velocity and the bonus associated.
Non-developers might have to learn something about development so they can push back on inflated estimates, which honestly would be helpful to everyone. If I quoted you $1,000 to unclog your kitchen sink trap, you'd call bullshit because you can probably find out how easy it is to do that. Likewise, if I quote you 13 points to add a generic error toast message because a POST went badly, you should call bullshit on th…
Fred sucks. We can say his work is easy, and continually make him feel bad without firing him, or we can pretend it’s two weeks.
Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
I continue to treat story points as a measure of time, despite being told repeatedly they're definitely not time. I will continue doing this until someone can explain to me, in a way I can understand, what they actually are that is not time.
Difficulty level? You can't promise you can beat a game on hard 2x as fast as you can on normal, or 3x as easy.
Regarding difficulty, easy things aren't even expected to be faster than hard things. I'd rate a backflip as much harder than counting to 100,000, even though it wouldn't take nearly as long.