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For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

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Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#381

Post by thoroughburro »

LunaSea wrote: post #311
remedan wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was already tried with the Do Not Track header. Websites simply ignore it. They don't want an easy way to get the user's preference. Because they know that most users would set it to decline tracking. Sites would rather annoy every visitor for the chance that they click 'accept'.

Users also don't want to pay to access content. So I guess that both the user and the site can't get what they want and we should scrap the internet.

Older folks might remember that there were a lot of people willing to make content free, just out of personal enthusiasm, and that this content was actually a lot higher quality than that pumped out by capitalist motivation.

So, actually, users and sites both had what they wanted, just not corporations.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#382

Post by closewith »

gjm11 wrote: post #363
closewith wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox playing their game makes Firefox completely redundant. The advertisers get your data either way, so why not use Chrome? Firefox compromising heralds its own irrelevance.

> The advertisers get your data either way, so why not use Chrome? You might believe that the advertisers get less of your data if you use Firefox. Similarly: you might be less likely to have your house burgled if there are locks on the doors and a burglar alarm, even though people with those things still get burgled sometimes. You might be less cold outdoors in winter if you wear a parka, even though it's still cold…

> You might believe that the advertisers get less of your data if you use Firefox.

Shortly as Chrome implements Privacy Sandbox, both Chrome and Firefox will support the same levels of advertising tracking. For Chrome, this is a privacy upgrade of sorts, but for Firefox, this is a definite downgrade.

As Firefox converges on Chrome in this area, the privacy advantage evaporates.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#383

Post by nick__m »

Kalium wrote: post #323
nerdponx wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is one single piece of software I will post a recurring fee for, it's a web browser. Look at Kagi and Orion for example (I pay for both). It's like email. You need to get people over the mental hump. But then if you offer a good product, buyers will be happy they got over it.

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/donate/ Here you go! Insert credit card here.

that doesn't pay for Firefox...

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#384

Post by closewith »

Klonoar wrote: post #321
closewith wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly reads defensively. > It’s an open source project, people will 100% notice if they tried to do what the parent comment is suggesting. No-one thinks they'll lie about it. They'd announce it quietly just like this change, letting the fuss blow over. The average user would never even realise and Firefox would continue on its journey towards user hostility.

You’re certainly welcome to read it however you’d like. OP specifically said “make the setting do nothing while still collecting the data”. I don’t know about you, but a setting that acts like that would be akin to lying. The comment chain is pretty clear here IMO.

> OP specifically said “make the setting do nothing while still collecting the data”. I don’t know about you, but a setting that acts like that would be akin to lying.

Well, that is what Firefox did here. They created a new feature, defaulted it to on, in direct contradiction to user choices. We know this because this Web Site Advertising feature defaults to on even where the user has the strictest level of tracking protection enabled and even when the DNT option is selected. Even so, Mozilla has decided that this form of tracking is not covered by those clear signals of user intent.

So why not believe that Mozilla will do this again. Deprecate existing tracking choices and enable Web Site Advertising tracking for everyone. Like this change, it would be announced and decried and ultimately used by the majority of users who don't follow browser changelogs.

What will happen is that privacy advocates like me will recommend not to use Firefox, as it's functionally equivalant to Chrome is this respect and far less supported, and Firefox will continue to die.

This pains me as a former contributor and advocate, but it's almost inevitable now unless a privacy-focused non-profit can fork Firefox and leave Mozilla to it's decline. I would even pay for a Firefox fork, but I will never donate to or purchase again from Mozilla.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#385

Post by _heimdall »

Y_Y wrote: post #300
_heimdall wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing ads outside likely doesn't harm you though, you can ignore them. If your city is plastered with ads to a point at where you can't stand it you can always move, that's just another part of a city that someone may decide they don't like and want something different. > Almost all websites have been tailored to include ads and hide information. You're tracked on all devices you touch. That's really the crux of it…

> Seeing ads outside likely doesn't harm you though, you can ignore them. Just for a different perspective, I can't ignore them. I read more-or-less all text that comes into my field of vision, and cannot help but look at bright flashing lights. To my knowledge this isn't recognized anywhere as a disability (though it is associated with a standard diagnosis). For me, and presumably others like me, flashing road signs…

When it comes to driving, that's seems like a totally reasonable concern. I also find roadside signs, digital boards, etc really distracting when driving. That one falls into a safety concern for everyone on the road too, where as ads in general may just be distracting, that distrsction could literally kill someone on the road.

In general, it is a really tough line to draw what is considered a protected disability. I don't know where I would draw the line, and it just gets harder as we create more diagnoses. I don't mean that to demonize the diagnoses at all, but it does make drawing a line for what to legally protect that much harder.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#386

Post by LunaSea »

thoroughburro wrote: post #381
LunaSea wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users also don't want to pay to access content. So I guess that both the user and the site can't get what they want and we should scrap the internet.

Older folks might remember that there were a lot of people willing to make content free, just out of personal enthusiasm, and that this content was actually a lot higher quality than that pumped out by capitalist motivation. So, actually, users and sites both had what they wanted, just not corporations.

I agree and these people still exist.

However not all content can be produced this way, news or sports coverage would be an example.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#387

Post by alright2565 »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #355
Croftengea wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AGPL is the way.

AGPL is a lawyer’s nightmare. Not just because of the restrictions - but because it’s very, very sloppily put together. Does connecting a AGPL-licensed database to your website make your whole website AGPL? What is the line between an innocent connection, or a viral integration? What happens if you add a proprietary protocol to the database specifically for your app? Do you need to open source it, if that database is…

Let's look at this paragraph, which is the only real difference between the GPL & AGPL, because I think the English is perfectly clear and understandable:

> Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, if you modify the Program, your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your version by providing access to the Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge, through some standard or customary means of facilitating copying of software. This Corresponding Source shall include the Corresponding Source for any work covered by version 3 of the GNU General Public License that is incorporated pursuant to the following paragraph.

> Does connecting a AGPL-licensed database to your website make your whole website AGPL?

The user doesn't interact with the database, so no. Since the app server is not linking to the database, it also isn't subject to the AGPL from that direction.

> What is the line between an innocent connection, or a viral integration?

Exactly the same as the GPL, since that section has not changed.

> What happens if you add a proprietary protocol to the database specifically for your app? Do you need to open source it, if that database is/isn’t publicly accessible?

If the user can access the database, you must provide them with the combined source code under the AGPL. If the user cannot access the database, you do not need to do anything.

> Why wouldn’t it be considered? Your project dependencies certainly aren’t directly publicly available, yet you agree the AGPL applies there.

You are linking against those dependencies. Therefore the whole work is under the AGPL, through the same mechanism as the GPL. Now that the entire work is under the AGPL, you must provide users who access it over the network the source code.

> Some have quoted the FSF about how “internal data structures” should be the distinction.

See this is a real source of ambiguity. But it is an ambiguity that applies to every *GPL license, not just the AGPL. But it's really not as big of a deal as you make it out to be, using the documented public network APIs obviously is not linking.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#388

Post by yupyupyups »

Kalium wrote: post #323
nerdponx wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is one single piece of software I will post a recurring fee for, it's a web browser. Look at Kagi and Orion for example (I pay for both). It's like email. You need to get people over the mental hump. But then if you offer a good product, buyers will be happy they got over it.

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/donate/ Here you go! Insert credit card here.

CEO of Mozilla earns $3m/year.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30665913

If the Mozilla foundation creates a donation button with the condition that the money goes solely to browser development (no CEO salary or political activism) I will donate.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#389

Post by account42 »

latexr wrote: post #87
eco wrote: post #17

The CTO of Mozilla just posted on /r/firefox about this: https://old.reddit.com/r/firefox/comments/1e43w7v/a_word_abo...

> It’s clear in retrospect that we should have communicated more on this one What isn’t clear, in retrospect or otherwise, is why companies/apps/services need to keep learning this lesson. The user outcry was utterly predictable from even before the first web article was out. The fact that no one with decision power at Mozilla saw it coming is worrying: either they have zero understanding of people’s concerns for pri…

Companies know this but they don't care because there are rarely any consequences that cannot easily be mitigated with cheap PR tactics. Even now you are responding to a PR statement that is trying to reframe the issue as users simply not understanding what Mozilla is doing when in reality Mozilla knows full well that this goes agains the explicit wishes of a large part of their userbase but have chosen to enable this anyway. This isn't a communitcation issue. This is a fundamental "who does Mozilla serve" issue.

Re: For advertising, Firefox now collects user data by default

#390

Post by lolinder »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #377
lolinder wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla has tried experiment after experiment to try to earn money. Let's try forcing Pocket down people's throats. Let's automatically install Mr Robot. You know what people will love? Full-page ads for a VPN! No one has seen enough VPN ads! The one funding model they haven't experimented with at all is actually asking people to pay for Firefox. Donations or subscription, they haven't even tried it once. And yet peo…

>And yet people will over and over again insist that that would never work. Because it won't. And there is mountains of data to back it up. People will not pay if they don't have to. Some people will, for sure, but to get those some people to carry the weight of "all the people" is totally untenable. Besides, Chrome is "free".

It doesn't have to pay for the entire Mozilla organization, it just has to bring in more money than the random other stuff they've tried. That's not a very high bar to cross.
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