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Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

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Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#121
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with below-ground power distribution for metropolitan areas?

I’m not an electrical or civil eng, but I imagine it’s very expensive to dig so many tunnels. Groundwater (especially for coastal cities) and people drilling holes would be very problematic too.

Assuming you don't hit rock, it's not bad.

Power lines that are rated for conduit burial (which implies indefinite direct submersion in water is fine -- conduits leak, even if they're not supposed to) are readily available and not particularly expensive vs. above ground lines. Most of the cost is in the conductor, and that's the same either way.

If memory serves me right, you need to trench 6ft (which is usually done with a backhoe that has a narrow bucket and straddles the trench), then place a PVC pipe to act as conduit and fill the trench. The last step is using a (typically) pickup-truck mounted cable puller to pull the line through the conduit.

If the wire fails, you can pull it out and put a new one in without retrenching.

When you bury the conduit, you also bury a piece of warning cloth about one foot above it. If you see that while digging, then you should stop digging. (Also, call the "call before you dig" number before you dig.)

There are also trenchless systems that I've seen used for fiber optic cables. It's basically a tiny little boring machine (like they use to bore holes for tunnels) on the end of a cable. One person steers the boring machine, and the other stands above ground with a metal detector that tells them where it is, and how deep.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#122
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't a "grid issue." It is a last-mile issue. It's specifically an issue with the sheer amount of above ground power lines and population density. There is no easy fix, preparation, or practically anything else that can be done to prevent something like this. Plus, what causes the same amount of power outages (wind damage) isn't going to be different between 90mph winds and 150 mph winds. The effects are going…

I disagree, and I speak from experience. We've been repeatedly hit by climate-change induced typhoons here (near the SF Bay Area), and hurricane-force gusts hit both of the last two years. Our area looses a lot of roads to mudslides, and of course we have extended power outages. Having said that, the first year, PG&E only delivered one nine of availability last year, and this year, they're closer to two nines. The di…

Houston actually has relatively low population density compared to other metro areas with only 3,842 people per square mile, and across the MSA (Houston is extremely spread out), that number is much lower. (Compare to, for example, Union City, NJ, with 54,138 persons/sq mile.) There are some 7.5 million people spread out across more than 10,000 square miles across the greater Houston area.

Also, the water table is very high, and hurricanes completely flood entire areas, so transformers etc are often completely underwater. It's just not feasible to bury sensitive equipment when the entire area is under six or ten feet of water.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Let's rephrase that. "Centerpoint Energy comes out on the bottom". I believe that's a statement Houstonians can get behind enthusiastically. (Although PG&E is also doing well in this race to the bottom".

[deleted]

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#124
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't a "grid issue." It is a last-mile issue. It's specifically an issue with the sheer amount of above ground power lines and population density. There is no easy fix, preparation, or practically anything else that can be done to prevent something like this. Plus, what causes the same amount of power outages (wind damage) isn't going to be different between 90mph winds and 150 mph winds. The effects are going…

I disagree, and I speak from experience. We've been repeatedly hit by climate-change induced typhoons here (near the SF Bay Area), and hurricane-force gusts hit both of the last two years. Our area looses a lot of roads to mudslides, and of course we have extended power outages. Having said that, the first year, PG&E only delivered one nine of availability last year, and this year, they're closer to two nines. The di…

You lost me at “climate change induced typhoon”.

Comparing an “Bay Area typhoon” (very hilly) to low and flat Houston with a direct hit is disingenuous at best.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moles, mice, things walking/driving over the top. There is a long list of things that make underground not nearly as reliable as it sounds.

Underground electric distribution is considerably more reliable than overhead lines. Animals digging up the wire is much more rare than an outage created by an animal crawling up a pole and grabbing the line/transformer. Underground electric is quite widely used in the Midwest and is cost effective vs. overhead lines even in sparsely populated rural areas.

Below-ground power distribution is cheaper in sparsely-populated rural areas than overhead lines because utility companies can trench the lines directly through anyone's field or in any random ditch - there's no directional boring required (until customer delivery possibly.)

Add in the fact that you no longer risk trees taking down lines when they are unkempt and ice-covered and it is probably much cheaper.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's obvious that everyone wants to blame it on their favorite villain, whatever that is. A more rational approach would be to look at comparable cities and see how they cope with big storms, whatever the storms' cat numbers. My guess is, no matter what comparables you pick, Houston comes out on the bottom. Maybe it IS deregulation! You can be in favor of it in general, and still admit, "OK, maybe in this instance it…

The issue was exactly the same with Ida and New Orleans in 2021. Areas of the New Orleans metro area were without power for 3 weeks or more

so that's one comparable. Surely there are other First World cities that have storms?

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berlin, 3.645M citizen, everything underground. Houston, 2.302M citizen, ... "gigantic"

As I understand it, the topsoil in parts of Texas is only a foot deep or less and then it's solid bedrock. This is why most homes do not have basements.

That’s not true in all of Texas for sure. I can vouch for it in Central Texas “hill country” 6-10”around my home and you will hit solid limestone. Makes a nice home foundation (provided it’s not too porous)but I would not want to pay for a pool or basement here.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#128
post #48

I‘m curious, Texas seems to get a lot of sun - how common are private solar installations on the roofs? Combined with a battery you could lower your electricity bill and would be safe from this kind of problem. In my neighbourhood in northern germany about 5% of the houses have them. They pay for themself in about 5-10 years. edit: spelling

Solar installations are common and growing. I put one on my Houston roof this year. However, battery backups to allow you to keep the lights on with your solar when the grid is down are much more expensive. Many people have gotten gas backup generators in the past few years instead.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#129
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with below-ground power distribution for metropolitan areas?

I'm getting strong "'No way to prevent this' says only country where this regularly happens" vibes.

It's funny to me that folks counter criticism of Texas by saying lefty California also has outages. It's like, sure, they do -- so why not show that a right-wing government can do better? What is the actual point of the counterargument?

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#130
post #75

I was there last weekend & for the day of the hurricane. This was just a cat 1 hurricane at the time it passed through Houston, and there was SO much damage. I can't imagine the city is remotely prepared for (god forbid, and idk how likely it is that far inland anyway) a cat 4 or 5. We were staying in a hotel that had a backup generator, but every single other building that was visible from our hotel had lost power d…

> I can't imagine the city is remotely prepared for (god forbid, and idk how likely it is that far inland anyway) a cat 4 or 5. In the past they've never had a cat 5. The last cat 5 was Carla in 1961. The last cat 3 was Alicia in 1983. The last cat 2 was Alicia in 2008 (although that was actually east of Houston and just hit Houston with its weaker winds). Climate change should make such storms more likely to form, b…

There were a lot of behavioral adaptations that don't seem as practical now because the extremes are so much hotter and more frequent. Porch sitting, the siesta, outdoor sleeping on porches and roofs, etc. were all ways to mitigate the heat.

Wealthier people built big houses with lots of thermal mass and tall ceilings while poorer people lived in shotgun houses with aligned doors and porches that created constant airflow.

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