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Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

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Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#151

Post by throwaway2037 »

ksec wrote: post #135
retskrad wrote: post #4

The M4 is the highest single core CPU in the world and it’s in a ridiculously thin tablet without cooling. I don’t understand where this idea that Apple has lost most of their chip design talent and is in trouble rhetoric is coming from. Apple still makes the world’s most advanced and efficient consumer chips, years after the M1.

The article doesn't even mentioned M4. Dont know why you are bringing this up. Apple has lost some or many of their chip design talent. Not All or Most . They did't lost it all at the same time either. Many of them have been working on M2 and M3, some later ones may be on M4 before they left. Apple has a node advantage, which is in itself a separate discussion. This article is straightly about IPC. We didn't even go…

    > Apple has lost some or many of their chip design talent. Not All or Most.
Did you read this somewhere? I tried to Google for it, but I cannot find anything. Or do you have an inside source?

The last that I knew/read, Johny Srouji was the key senior executive in the Apple CPU division. It looks like they continue to expand his R&D labs in Israel (according to a Wiki source).

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johny_Srouji

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#152

Post by throwaway2037 »

tedunangst wrote: post #8
retskrad wrote: post #4

The M4 is the highest single core CPU in the world and it’s in a ridiculously thin tablet without cooling. I don’t understand where this idea that Apple has lost most of their chip design talent and is in trouble rhetoric is coming from. Apple still makes the world’s most advanced and efficient consumer chips, years after the M1.

You're only allowed to be the darling for one year or so. Then you suck again.

So true. On HN, 15 mins is the time to expiry.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#153

Post by MobiusHorizons »

stefan_ wrote: post #99
retskrad wrote: post #4

The M4 is the highest single core CPU in the world and it’s in a ridiculously thin tablet without cooling. I don’t understand where this idea that Apple has lost most of their chip design talent and is in trouble rhetoric is coming from. Apple still makes the world’s most advanced and efficient consumer chips, years after the M1.

I don't understand what prompted you to bring up the M4 in a meticulously researched deep-dive on the Oryon architecture. The original article doesn't mention it once. Is this just flame bait?

The article does reference firestorm cores like those in M series chips. It’s also an obvious comparison, because the Oryon is the only other desktop class ARM chip not designed by ARM the company. This chip is what Microsoft will try to use to compete with M series chips of which the latest is the M4. Seems like the obvious competition

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#154

Post by throwaway2037 »

Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #133
hajile wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jim Keller is confident that Ascalon will have performance close to zen5 when it is finished later this year. Chips in hand could be some than a lot of people seen to think.

>when it is finished later this year Source for this claim?

Ref: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/jim-keller-shares-zen5-per...

    > The predictions put Tenstorrent's upcoming CPU core comfortably ahead of Intel's Sapphire Rapids (7.45 points), Nvidia's Grace (7.44 points), and AMD's Zen 4 (6.80 points). Yet, AMD's Zen 5 is projected to hit 8.84 points, making it the absolute integer performance champion in 2024 – 2025.
I absolutely do not believe it. Until independent reviewers can test the new Ascalon processor, these numbers are just fantasy.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#155

Post by sudosysgen »

TylerE wrote: post #35
Sakos wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I picked the Ars article because they showed real-world performance like encoding. Geekbench scores are difficult to impossible to equate to real-world results. There are ways to measure it properly, but most sites seem to just do Geekbench or something else like it and call it a day. Single-core performance isn't this universal thing. What's your actual workload like? I'm all over the Ryzen x3D CPUs because they hav…

I will say that my M1 Mac runs Factorio like an absolute dream. There is an ARM native port now and it’s really good. It something like doubled UPS over the old Intel binary. One of the big advantages the M chips have is the insanely fast integrated memory, since it’s all right on the die. It’s much closer to ultra high spec GPU ram than PC ram. My M1 studio has 200GB/sec of memory bandwidth. Extant DDR5 modules are…

The X3D chips have an absolutely ridiculous amount of L3 cache, so when your workload fits largely in L3 they have far, far more memory bandwidth than any other option on the market. That's the case pretty often, especially for games, hence the workload specificity. The X3D cache system means some workloads are 50% faster and some are 20% slower, so workload really does matter.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#156

Post by pjmlp »

0x457 wrote: post #90
ben_w wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No year will ever be "the year of Linux on the desktop", despite that phrase being so old that if I'd conceived a child when I first heard it, I'd be a grandparent already. The fact that you can't imagine a device being useful until it can compile the Linux kernel etc., that you dismiss it as a "Netflix machine", says more about you than about Apple.

> the year of Linux on the desktop It already happened: Windows + WSL2. Windows is the best linux distro.

Most of the stuff WSL 2 allows for was already available with Virtual Box and VMWare Workstation, which I have been using since 2010.

The nice part of it, is coming in the box.

In any case, I do agree, Linux on the Desktop will stay packaged in a VM, without the hurdles of dual boot, or lack of the hardware support OEMs will never care about.

Even on devices that ship the Linux kernel like Chromebooks, running the Crostini GNU/Linux distribution is done inside of a VM, WSL2 style, and to this day there are several issues regarding hardware support that Google never bothered to improve.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#157

Post by pjmlp »

Rinzler89 wrote: post #108
0x457 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the year of Linux on the desktop It already happened: Windows + WSL2. Windows is the best linux distro.

Eh, yes and no. Windows kernel plus it's backend features for security, emulation and virtualization, which enable things like WSL2 and backwards compatibility to work are great, but they're hampered by a crap front end with news, ads, web search in start menu, and dark patterns everywhere being forced down your throat like OneDrive holding your files ransom in the cloud if you don't pay attention or the failed push…

I use Linux since 1995, and have used multiple UNIXes, most of the well known commercial ones since 1993.

Unless we are talking about installing it on a classical desktop PC tower, or some embedded device like the Raspeberry like boards with the OEM custom distribution, I am not bothering with it, it goes into a desktop VM and that is it.

Too many wasted weekends throughout the years, always sorting out the same issues.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#158

Post by pjmlp »

bhouston wrote: post #2

From the article it seems like it clones a lot of the Apple M1 technology. So smart acquisition on Qualcomm's part to get competitive again. Apple engineers who worked on the Apple M4 should go start another company so Qualcomm can acquire it again for +1B. :). Or better yet, acquired by ARM themselves. It is likely that as this tech makes it to the smartphone market, Android phones are going to get a major speed boo…

My Nokia and Samsung devices have kept me happy for the last decade, hardly a reason to envy iDevices.

I get access to the Apple ecosystem via my job, and still haven't bought a single thing from them for private use.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#159

Post by throwaway55110 »

effie wrote: post #146
gumby wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do note that the M4 is built on TSMC's 3nm process while the 9950X is built on the relatively older 4nm process. That helps (perhaps a lot, hard to say), but note that moving your design from 4 nm to 3 nm pitch isn’t as simple as recompiling your Verilog. So this is still a significant engineering achievement. Apple is chasing a different design point from the desktop folks: low power and optimized more for single…

Upgradability of RAM isn't the issue, it's the price of getting access to that RAM. On PC you get it for cheap, you just pay for the RAM modules. On Apple, you get it for arm and a leg, as you don't pay for the modules, but for the privilege to use their higher end model with enough RAM.

Another point of view:

The low end models are so cheap that Apple is definitely subsidizing them with revenue from the higher end models. If RAM upgrades were priced based on RAM stick costs, the base model would have to be much more expensive and less people would have access to it.

Professional workstations have always cost an arm and leg - both arms and both legs usually, for example a SGI workstation used to cost 50K dollars! I think it's great that Apple also produces a subsidized low cost model so more people can get access to it.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#160

Post by ben_w »

throwaway55110 wrote: post #159
effie wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upgradability of RAM isn't the issue, it's the price of getting access to that RAM. On PC you get it for cheap, you just pay for the RAM modules. On Apple, you get it for arm and a leg, as you don't pay for the modules, but for the privilege to use their higher end model with enough RAM.

Another point of view: The low end models are so cheap that Apple is definitely subsidizing them with revenue from the higher end models. If RAM upgrades were priced based on RAM stick costs, the base model would have to be much more expensive and less people would have access to it. Professional workstations have always cost an arm and leg - both arms and both legs usually, for example a SGI workstation used to cost…

They might be subsidising low-end models like that with the M-series, but as they were definitely overcharging for RAM way back when it was user-installable sticks… my gut feeling is RAM* is mostly a differential pricing strategy

* for laptops and desktops, storage pricing tiers also give me this feeling; however in the case of tablets and phones, the way they're used — for most people they are the primary computing device in their lives — less so.

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