Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

aymeric.gaurat.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 117 posts

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#91

Post by maratd »

uniclaude wrote: post #78
maratd wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My only frustrations were things that, unfortunately, can happen with outsourced work -- timing. My guy was an A developer, but a B/C time manager. So the project took about 2x as long as it should have. So technically, he billed at $60 an hour. And that is the issue with outsourcing. A local guy in your office might have gotten things done in half the time and cost you just as much. There is another issue with tim…

> A local guy in your office might have gotten things done in half the time and cost you just as much. Are you implying than developers working on site are never late? This is far from true. Edit: To the downvoters, please explain, I may be misguided.

> Are you implying than developers working on site are never late?

I'm implying that when you factor in the lack of time zone differences, communications issues, and the increased efficiency of having your employee in the same office as you, then you'll probably get the work done in half the time.

I didn't even touch the fact that your options domestically are far more expansive if you want to hire a high quality developer who will get the job done in a fraction of the time, producing maintainable, high quality code.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#92

Post by its_so_on »

bad_user wrote: post #90
maratd wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My only frustrations were things that, unfortunately, can happen with outsourced work -- timing. My guy was an A developer, but a B/C time manager. So the project took about 2x as long as it should have. So technically, he billed at $60 an hour. And that is the issue with outsourcing. A local guy in your office might have gotten things done in half the time and cost you just as much. There is another issue with tim…

I work remotely, and I have to disagree with your points: So technically, he billed at $60 an hour Remote developers often do not have the same benefits as local employees. They do not have the same protections found in employment contracts, they do not have healthcare benefits, they must also buy their own hardware and office equipment and other requirements. Not to mention that if the work is contract-based, they m…

The point was much more specific. He's saying the guy worked slowly, and everything he did took 2x the expected time.

If his rate was $100, it's really now $200. If $200, now $400. (For comparison with another remote worker who works at full speed.)

the actual rate (high or low) wasn't really the point. It wasn't a statement of whether it's expensive or cheap, just an observation that someone who works at $30 "twice as slow" (i.e. half expected speed) is equal - in terms of $/feature - to someone works at $60 at full speed on a like basis - even if that basis is also remote.

(Also, even though $/feature is the same between the two, it's worth bearing in mind that the cheaper guy still takes twice as many days.)

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#93

Post by dansingerman »

maratd wrote: post #36
nlh wrote: post #21

I'll share a similar (positive) experience I had a few years ago. I'm not quite what I'd call a developer, but I'm a company founder who's "code savvy". I made the decision to outsource the development of a moderately big PHP project a few years ago -- I went through a LOT of profiles on oDesk and finally settled on a guy (who billed about $30/hr, which was on the high end for non-US guys on oDesk). He was _terrific_…

> My only frustrations were things that, unfortunately, can happen with outsourced work -- timing. My guy was an A developer, but a B/C time manager. So the project took about 2x as long as it should have. So technically, he billed at $60 an hour. And that is the issue with outsourcing. A local guy in your office might have gotten things done in half the time and cost you just as much. There is another issue with tim…

The vast majority of projects are underestimated; that's a truism of software development. If the outsourced developer was good in all other respects, I don't see any evidence to suggest it took twice as long because he was outsourced.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#94

Post by maratd »

bad_user wrote: post #90
maratd wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My only frustrations were things that, unfortunately, can happen with outsourced work -- timing. My guy was an A developer, but a B/C time manager. So the project took about 2x as long as it should have. So technically, he billed at $60 an hour. And that is the issue with outsourcing. A local guy in your office might have gotten things done in half the time and cost you just as much. There is another issue with tim…

I work remotely, and I have to disagree with your points: So technically, he billed at $60 an hour Remote developers often do not have the same benefits as local employees. They do not have the same protections found in employment contracts, they do not have healthcare benefits, they must also buy their own hardware and office equipment and other requirements. Not to mention that if the work is contract-based, they m…

Remote Worker != Outsourced Worker. I didn't touch on the many reasons why, but I would certainly entertain the idea of hiring somebody remotely ... but never remotely on the other side of the planet.

> Even if your assertion is true, $60 is dirt cheap.

60 x 8 x 5 x 52 = 124,800

That's a funny definition of dirt cheap.

> While it is possible to find local talent, the pool of good developers is limited

Not in a major city, especially if you know where and how to look.

> Personally I'm on call 24/7.

Except when you're sleeping? And if your time zone = my business hours, that's a problem.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#95

Post by smiler »

balloot wrote: post #64
campnic wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One additional concern on this: the cost is hidden. My current company sometimes misses this issue. The developer you've outsourced to can take 1.5x but if that slows down not just his items but dependent work, the cost can be very difficult to determine.

This is exactly why the outsourcing craze fizzled out for the most part. I remember when I was in school for CS in 2002/2003 there were people who would tell me that I was earning a useless degree, as all programming jobs would end up overseas. The bottom line is that outsourcing looks great on paper but then just murders you with hidden costs. Delays to market, code maintainability, number of bugs, etc all go the wr…

Outsourcing has not fizzled out - I still see plenty of it ongoing

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#96

Post by kika »

aymeric wrote: post #30
mzarate06 wrote: post #20

A developer can talk to a developer. Most of the failed outsource attempts I know of are one way or another due to non-technical team members attempting to lead technical teams. That a developer could lead another developer, or team of developers, down the right path sooner, more efficiently, and for a longer duration, makes perfect sense. In practice, it's worked brilliantly for the teams I've worked with. Even stil…

Outsourcing is a learned skill, definitely. I didn't start with outsourcing a full blown startup project. I started with small admin tasks using a virtual assistant I'd pay $5 / hour. It helped me understand how to be clearer via emails, what processes to use to gain visibility on progress without micromanaging. Also I am a seasoned traveller and I think it helped me understand cultural sensitivities. An Eastern Euro…

This rudeness is usually just a result of not being able to adequately translate from their native language. In Russian for example, many rude words are not actually rude. But their translation into English are, but many non natives are not aware of this. Do not tolerate, just ignore :-)

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#98

Post by trafnar »

pjmlp wrote: post #88

Being forced to work on a big consultancy company, specialized in outsourcing, makes me sad reading this type of blogs. If you want to outsource development, at least keep it inside your country. Outsourcing to countries were cheap work and poor working conditions rule, just leads to exploitation of people. Sadly very few, get to improve their life conditions. I for one, wouldn't like to have my company's success tie…

Do you think these foreign workers would be better off without these programming jobs available to them?

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#99

Post by geon »

maratd wrote: post #94
bad_user wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work remotely, and I have to disagree with your points: So technically, he billed at $60 an hour Remote developers often do not have the same benefits as local employees. They do not have the same protections found in employment contracts, they do not have healthcare benefits, they must also buy their own hardware and office equipment and other requirements. Not to mention that if the work is contract-based, they m…

Remote Worker != Outsourced Worker. I didn't touch on the many reasons why, but I would certainly entertain the idea of hiring somebody remotely ... but never remotely on the other side of the planet. > Even if your assertion is true, $60 is dirt cheap. 60 x 8 x 5 x 52 = 124,800 That's a funny definition of dirt cheap. > While it is possible to find local talent, the pool of good developers is limited Not in a major…

>> Personally I'm on call 24/7.

> Except when you're sleeping?

24/7 is by definition when you're sleeping. As in "call me when I'm asleep, and I'll get up and take care of your emergency".

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#100

Post by Evernoob »

its_so_on wrote: post #92
bad_user wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work remotely, and I have to disagree with your points: So technically, he billed at $60 an hour Remote developers often do not have the same benefits as local employees. They do not have the same protections found in employment contracts, they do not have healthcare benefits, they must also buy their own hardware and office equipment and other requirements. Not to mention that if the work is contract-based, they m…

The point was much more specific. He's saying the guy worked slowly, and everything he did took 2x the expected time. If his rate was $100, it's really now $200. If $200, now $400. (For comparison with another remote worker who works at full speed.) the actual rate (high or low) wasn't really the point. It wasn't a statement of whether it's expensive or cheap, just an observation that someone who works at $30 "twice…

Exactly. In fact they are worse instead of "equal" because although you pay the same financially you're waiting for your product for twice as long.
Post reply on HN