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I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

aymeric.gaurat.net

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Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#21

Post by nlh »

I'll share a similar (positive) experience I had a few years ago. I'm not quite what I'd call a developer, but I'm a company founder who's "code savvy".

I made the decision to outsource the development of a moderately big PHP project a few years ago -- I went through a LOT of profiles on oDesk and finally settled on a guy (who billed about $30/hr, which was on the high end for non-US guys on oDesk). He was _terrific_ -- we were basically on IM with each other constantly, and he was very open with regular code reviews and feature checks. He added a ton to the project and it worked out way better than I could have guessed given the stigma outsourced development has.

The key, I think, was as other folks have pointed out - that I speak the same technical language and wasn't throwing big meaningless features at the guy ("I want it just like Facebook, but for pets!!").

My only frustrations were things that, unfortunately, can happen with outsourced work -- timing. My guy was an A developer, but a B/C time manager. So the project took about 2x as long as it should have.

But as they say -- quality, price, speed: pick two.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#22

Post by mellon »

dustyreagan wrote: post #4

I wonder what the general opinion is on legal protection (such signing a contractor agreement) when working with someone in another country. I figure it must be hard to enforce, and you'd mainly be working based on trust. But, it seems like having some sort of legal agreement in place, regardless of how difficult it would be to enforce, would be prudent. Anyone have experience with this?

Are you worried he's going to take off with your $20?

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#23

Post by aymeric »

nlh wrote: post #21

I'll share a similar (positive) experience I had a few years ago. I'm not quite what I'd call a developer, but I'm a company founder who's "code savvy". I made the decision to outsource the development of a moderately big PHP project a few years ago -- I went through a LOT of profiles on oDesk and finally settled on a guy (who billed about $30/hr, which was on the high end for non-US guys on oDesk). He was _terrific_…

Yes, I don't set hard deadlines in my business so this drawback wasn't a big deal to me but if you outsource, you can expect things will be slower than if you'd do it yourself.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#25

Post by aymeric »

vibrunazo wrote: post #6

I've considered outsourcing part of development before. But always gave up after thinking how hard would be to find someone who is actually good. And to be honest, after reading that the author had to first hire two girls just to look for a developer. It doesn't really gets me any more excited. Just thinking about all the useful developing time that I'd wasting looking for a good developer. It just doesn't seem worth…

I don't think I got lucky. I went through this process three times now (looking for a developer for c#, another one for ruby on rails, etc...) and the amount of people looking for work online means that if you filter well, you will be able to get the quality you are looking for.

The rewards of finding the right developer far outweight the upfront cost of looking for one in my opinion, but it depends how long you are planning to be in business for.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#26

Post by aymeric »

TheBiv wrote: post #11
vibrunazo wrote: post #6

I've considered outsourcing part of development before. But always gave up after thinking how hard would be to find someone who is actually good. And to be honest, after reading that the author had to first hire two girls just to look for a developer. It doesn't really gets me any more excited. Just thinking about all the useful developing time that I'd wasting looking for a good developer. It just doesn't seem worth…

Howdy, I am a developer (PHP, .Net, Ruby) and I have had similar experiences as the author, but I think that he should have highlighted the part where he says "fire fast". That is the best advice that he could ever have given. Let's face it, the majority of web applications today are not a technical challenge that have never been solved before. Your main advantage will be to take the requirement and break it down int…

Yes fire fast. Recently I tried to hire someone. He was a good communicator but he was just not technical enough. So I let him go and two days after I found the right person.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#27

Post by aymeric »

dmragone wrote: post #19
TheBiv wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Howdy, I am a developer (PHP, .Net, Ruby) and I have had similar experiences as the author, but I think that he should have highlighted the part where he says "fire fast". That is the best advice that he could ever have given. Let's face it, the majority of web applications today are not a technical challenge that have never been solved before. Your main advantage will be to take the requirement and break it down int…

Another key here is breaking down the specs. If you're clear in your communication, you can get good work. But being 100% clear with exactly what you want the finished product to look like is critical.

I usually try to draw mockups to describe the work. I have a tabletPC so that helps. Also, for really technical stuff, I tried to put myself in his shoes and describe how I would approach the problem.

There is a fine line between clarifying and micromanaging though.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#28

Post by aymeric »

rubeng wrote: post #18
vibrunazo wrote: post #6

I've considered outsourcing part of development before. But always gave up after thinking how hard would be to find someone who is actually good. And to be honest, after reading that the author had to first hire two girls just to look for a developer. It doesn't really gets me any more excited. Just thinking about all the useful developing time that I'd wasting looking for a good developer. It just doesn't seem worth…

Like anything else, the more you do it the easier it gets. I have two part time developers working for me (one from Nepal and the other from Ukraine. They're both great. Much better than the 80-90k/year developers I worked with when I had a day job. Initially I start by posting the job, then filtering in stages before asking them (and paying them) to complete a small 1 to 2 hour coding project. The coding exercise ca…

Yes, and their test work is useful too.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#29

Post by sanj »

Brilliant.

I did the same thing -- http://outletmapper.com

Some learnings:

1. It really does free up your head to think about harder issues (read: getting in front of the right market) if you're not distracted by code. For me, code is "my happy place", so it is too easy to spend too much time there.

2. I asked hard questions when picking someone to work with. Not just "have you used MapKit" but "how would you do hit detection inside an arbitrary polygon efficiently -- on iOS?"

3. Keep feedback to the right level. Sending back a stack trace and commenting on an edge condition was fine. Somehow sending back a patch seemed over the line.

4. The product will only be as good as your specifications. Get them right. Build test cases. Build a set of better test cases that you use -- that you don't share.

5. Get it right before paying someone. Paper, PPT slides, HTML demos all help to get the ideas baked before your money is pouring out the door.

6. If you're in the US, hire US. Why? You can have them sign a contract that is actually enforceable.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#30

Post by aymeric »

mzarate06 wrote: post #20

A developer can talk to a developer. Most of the failed outsource attempts I know of are one way or another due to non-technical team members attempting to lead technical teams. That a developer could lead another developer, or team of developers, down the right path sooner, more efficiently, and for a longer duration, makes perfect sense. In practice, it's worked brilliantly for the teams I've worked with. Even stil…

Outsourcing is a learned skill, definitely. I didn't start with outsourcing a full blown startup project. I started with small admin tasks using a virtual assistant I'd pay $5 / hour. It helped me understand how to be clearer via emails, what processes to use to gain visibility on progress without micromanaging.

Also I am a seasoned traveller and I think it helped me understand cultural sensitivities. An Eastern European contractor usually behaves differently than a Filiino or an Indian. They tend to be more direct in their communication style, to the point of sounding rude sometimes. Once you know that, it is easier to tolerate it :)

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