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I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

aymeric.gaurat.net

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Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#11

Post by TheBiv »

vibrunazo wrote: post #6

I've considered outsourcing part of development before. But always gave up after thinking how hard would be to find someone who is actually good. And to be honest, after reading that the author had to first hire two girls just to look for a developer. It doesn't really gets me any more excited. Just thinking about all the useful developing time that I'd wasting looking for a good developer. It just doesn't seem worth…

Howdy, I am a developer (PHP, .Net, Ruby) and I have had similar experiences as the author, but I think that he should have highlighted the part where he says "fire fast". That is the best advice that he could ever have given. Let's face it, the majority of web applications today are not a technical challenge that have never been solved before.

Your main advantage will be to take the requirement and break it down into its lowest parts and then hand off those parts to an outsourced developer and if he/she does not deliver exactly to your spec, then end the relationship. Period.

There is a certain amount of luck to it, but just as the author suggests, I recommend first having the developer create a very simple application with requirements that you define and estimate how long it would have taken you (probably no more than a 5 hour task) and if he/she can deliver, then you've got yourself a winner and you can focus on the business and not javascript errors.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#12

Post by TheBiv »

jzukoff wrote: post #10

I just have to question the quality of the code one risks receiving when outsourcing; sure you can get lucky and find a great guy but in all likelihood it would take a few iterations to find someone worthwhile. All the while you'd be spending time and money finding a developer & losing precious time working on the product at hand.

The quality of the code is up to your requirements as a developer. Have the outsourced developer code exactly to the requirement and accept nothing less.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#13

Post by andrewcooke »

pestaa wrote: post #9
dustyreagan wrote: post #4

I wonder what the general opinion is on legal protection (such signing a contractor agreement) when working with someone in another country. I figure it must be hard to enforce, and you'd mainly be working based on trust. But, it seems like having some sort of legal agreement in place, regardless of how difficult it would be to enforce, would be prudent. Anyone have experience with this?

I have developed for foreign companies both with and without a contract. I can see no way either me or those companies would have pursued the agreement legally. Maybe because the companies were in fact startups. However, I prefer to work under the terms of an agreement, mainly because the employer shows interest in taking the time to formally define his expectations and attitude toward developers.

I'm in a similar position, but have never worked without some kind of contract. Even if it's not binding, it describes what people expect and so gives guidance on what to do. I've never broken a contract and never had one broken.

The one thing that has worried me is being asked, after signing a contract with a company in at "at will" state, to agree to a "gentleman's agreement" to give a month's notice. If that's what they wanted, why didn't they put it in writing?

More usefully, for the OP, if you're a foreign contractor by far the biggest hurdle is trust. For finding a job and for making that job work. Anyone with an established reputation / identity is going to care - likely more than you - that things work out. On the other hand, I guess, people like that also don't have the kind of cost difference you might be hoping for...

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#14

Post by TheBiv »

dustyreagan wrote: post #4

I wonder what the general opinion is on legal protection (such signing a contractor agreement) when working with someone in another country. I figure it must be hard to enforce, and you'd mainly be working based on trust. But, it seems like having some sort of legal agreement in place, regardless of how difficult it would be to enforce, would be prudent. Anyone have experience with this?

I have had experience in this, and you're right about how difficult it is to enforce but in my experience merely having a document to reference and threaten with legal action is enough to scare most fear away. Just don't lean on your agreement, lean on your payment. Begin with simple tasks, and the most you would be out is $20-$30 and if you begin to show the outsourced developer that you will be bringing them constant work then you will be a god-send. Do not start a project and wait until the end to point out that something is going wrong with timing/code/payment/etc.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#15

Post by Sambdala »

For any project that you want to pivot or extend substantially beyond your first iteration, this seems very risky as you might end up with code that has bad commenting, indecipherable, or needs to be completely rewritten before you can either work on it yourself or pass it on to another developer.

I would imagine, in most cases, building the MVP yourself and then bringing in an Odesk developer to add functionality is likely better in most cases.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#16

Post by vasco »

dustyreagan wrote: post #4

I wonder what the general opinion is on legal protection (such signing a contractor agreement) when working with someone in another country. I figure it must be hard to enforce, and you'd mainly be working based on trust. But, it seems like having some sort of legal agreement in place, regardless of how difficult it would be to enforce, would be prudent. Anyone have experience with this?

Hey, I've been doing some gigs in oDesk and when you're working on an hourly billed project it's quite safe. They have a piece of software you install that randomly takes print screens while you're working, and makes sure you're active by measuring keystrokes and mouse clicks. You also do daily reports and so the guy who is paying you basically knows everything that is going on. If things eventually don't check out they can appeal on the payments based on the activity and end result, but I have no experience with that.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#17

Post by vitomd »

I am a freelancer developer . 50% of my work come from social networking (twitter, IRC, blog). And the other 50% from referals (the client promote my work with his friends ). So if you want to find a good developer, follow developers on twitter, follow his blogs, ask questions, research github and chat with them. I am sure that you will find very good developers.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#18

Post by rubeng »

vibrunazo wrote: post #6

I've considered outsourcing part of development before. But always gave up after thinking how hard would be to find someone who is actually good. And to be honest, after reading that the author had to first hire two girls just to look for a developer. It doesn't really gets me any more excited. Just thinking about all the useful developing time that I'd wasting looking for a good developer. It just doesn't seem worth…

Like anything else, the more you do it the easier it gets. I have two part time developers working for me (one from Nepal and the other from Ukraine. They're both great. Much better than the 80-90k/year developers I worked with when I had a day job.

Initially I start by posting the job, then filtering in stages before asking them (and paying them) to complete a small 1 to 2 hour coding project. The coding exercise can be done many different ways but the purpose is to evaluate problem solving, code quality, knowledge of libraries, code structure, etc. It's amazing how much insight you can gain with something like that.

More importantly, having them work on something real helps me further evaluate communication, responsiveness, and other attributes I look for in a good dev.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#19

Post by dmragone »

TheBiv wrote: post #11
vibrunazo wrote: post #6

I've considered outsourcing part of development before. But always gave up after thinking how hard would be to find someone who is actually good. And to be honest, after reading that the author had to first hire two girls just to look for a developer. It doesn't really gets me any more excited. Just thinking about all the useful developing time that I'd wasting looking for a good developer. It just doesn't seem worth…

Howdy, I am a developer (PHP, .Net, Ruby) and I have had similar experiences as the author, but I think that he should have highlighted the part where he says "fire fast". That is the best advice that he could ever have given. Let's face it, the majority of web applications today are not a technical challenge that have never been solved before. Your main advantage will be to take the requirement and break it down int…

Another key here is breaking down the specs. If you're clear in your communication, you can get good work. But being 100% clear with exactly what you want the finished product to look like is critical.

Re: I am a developer, yet I outsource the development of my startup

#20

Post by mzarate06 »

A developer can talk to a developer.

Most of the failed outsource attempts I know of are one way or another due to non-technical team members attempting to lead technical teams. That a developer could lead another developer, or team of developers, down the right path sooner, more efficiently, and for a longer duration, makes perfect sense. In practice, it's worked brilliantly for the teams I've worked with.

Even still, it takes a special kind of developer to successfully outsource development work. It's not sufficient to simply push work over a wall and accept whatever comes back. Things like well defined requirements, frequent code reviews, detailed mockups, and clearly stated user stories are critical, b/c when you outsource work, the default regresses from what you'd normally expect to substandard work.

But, that's not always due to the outsourced team. Often times its on the hiring party to identify what they need to do better. Great results start with great teams, and part of being a great team is understanding that accountability for the overall result flows both ways.

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