Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games • Hacker News Board

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#151

Post by sambeau » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 9:45 AM UTC

dfc wrote: post #40

saulrh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swords are a lot lighter than people think, even the heaviest armor in use (completely different from the ceremonial stuff) was much less restrictive than usually believed, and the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I suspect that if you used a wiimote or a kinect-tracked stick things would all balance out. It would still require some abstraction, true, but not quite that…

> the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I am curious if this is just speculation or if you have evidence for this statement? At first it seems reasonable but I am not so confident after you factor in modern medicine and advances in nutrition/diet and discount for stereotyping.

14th century knights had the physiques of professional rugby players:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10138060

http://www.stirlingcastle.gov.uk/home/newsevents/bbc2history...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1279306/Face-mystery...

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#152

Post by lloeki » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 10:13 AM UTC

jeffool wrote: post #142

antipax wrote: post #6

Biggest problem with these games (I've found, anyway) is that your sword controller cannot magically stop in mid air when your virtual sword hits another sword or a wall or whatever. It really ruins the immersion.

I agree. A robotic arm (even a weighted stand with a hard plastic arm and thin plastic sword) seems pretty much required to get realistic sword fighting in. A good camera on the base that keeps an eye of where the "sword" is could do a reasonable job of keeping it from hitting most things, yeah? And I think people wouldn't have a problem with it. They made room for the entire Rock Band ensemble. Just make it fold fla…

Indeed, and Kinect requires enough clear space for a simulated duel to take place (especially for two players).

(Time to ramp up my iaido skills)

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#153

Post by lloeki » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 10:14 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #15

antipax wrote: post #6

Biggest problem with these games (I've found, anyway) is that your sword controller cannot magically stop in mid air when your virtual sword hits another sword or a wall or whatever. It really ruins the immersion.

It will also have to drastically downplay the importance of footwork. In a real swordfight, where to put your feet is nearly as important as where to put the sword.

Combine Kinect with the controller. I'm more concerned with haptic feedback.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#154

Post by defen » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 12:44 PM UTC

josephkern wrote: post #136

defen wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the draw weight of the longbow - "Although the draw weight of a typical English longbow is disputed, it was at least 360 newtons (81 pounds-force) and possibly more than 600 N (130 lbf), with some estimates as high as 900 N (200 lbf)". And they would loose approximately 6 arrows per minute in combat. And this was a weapon for the yeomanry, not the guys whose entire lives were devoted to maintaining military…

> And this was a weapon for the yeomanry, not the guys whose entire lives were devoted to maintaining military prowess. Yes in fact they did spend their whole lives practicing. (From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#Training ): "Longbows were very difficult to master because the force required to deliver an arrow through the improving armour of medieval Europe was very high by modern standards ... etons o…

Perhaps I was a bit ambiguous - they were free farmers, not professional soldiers. Even if they spent a good deal of time practicing, it was not their primary pursuit.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#155

Post by Paul_S » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 12:48 PM UTC

kuahyeow wrote: post #148

An update has just been posted, only for backers though. Anyone mind sharing?

It's been incorporated into the front page. The only thing missing is that they want to use Razer Hydra as the controller.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#156

Post by stan_rogers » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 2:39 PM UTC

MasterScrat wrote: post #83

jedbrown wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only helps with angular momentum, not with linear momentum.

Is that really a problem? If something hits your sword it's going to make you rotate your wrist, not stop your hand, because it will be blocking the blade and not the handle.

Not if you're using a sword intended for cutting strokes and strike correctly. Distal to the "sweet spot", your hand will continue while the blade is rotated; proximal, and the distal end of the sword will tend to continue while your hand is levered backwards. Just as when using a tennis racket or a baseball bat, though, the moment is balanced around the point of contact when you strike correctly (the proximal part of the blade has more mass but less velocity; the distal has more velocity but less mass) and the blade, as a unit, stops (or is at least slowed by a uniform scale when the target can be cut through). Transitioning from a "chop" to a "slice" requires additional input from the swordsman.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#157

Post by ufo » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 3:02 PM UTC

ph0rque wrote: post #125

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely any game where you can respawn even once is already extremely realistic. Would anyone want to play a war simulator FPS that starts with a cutscene of the Normandy landings and has a 50% chance of immediately being cut down by a machine gun whereupon the game quits and deletes itself off your hard drive?

Relevant PBF comic: http://pbfcomics.com/134/

Wow, there are a couple of new ones!

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#158

Post by brianobush » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 3:51 PM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #140

brianobush wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my approach to realistic fighting is: go to kendo keiko as often as possible. even the bruises seem real.

Kendo's pretty far from realistic fighting. The fact that it's a contact sport is cool, though.

I think it is more realistic than a game will ever be. You can block and have your strikes blocked. That seems pretty impossible to do with a controller.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#159

Post by Karellen » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 3:56 PM UTC

defen wrote: post #61

dfc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I am curious if this is just speculation or if you have evidence for this statement? At first it seems reasonable but I am not so confident after you factor in modern medicine and advances in nutrition/diet and discount for stereotyping.

Consider the draw weight of the longbow - "Although the draw weight of a typical English longbow is disputed, it was at least 360 newtons (81 pounds-force) and possibly more than 600 N (130 lbf), with some estimates as high as 900 N (200 lbf)". And they would loose approximately 6 arrows per minute in combat. And this was a weapon for the yeomanry, not the guys whose entire lives were devoted to maintaining military…

Your rate is low. A semi-decent archer (which most men were, practicing every Sunday after church) should be able to loose at least 12 arrows/minute. Most students (~80%) are able to do that, safely, after about 4 3-hour training sessions, 2 weeks apart. Admittedly, they're only using 30-40lb bows, and can only do it for 1 minute, but that's just lack of strength/stamina which comes from practice. A fair proportion can reach 15 arrows/minute, and a very few will eventually be able to get off 18/minute.

This is for shooting at a block of billmen, which does not require much in the way of aim. So long as you aim in roughly the right direction, and get your elevation and draw length mostly right, that's all that's really necessary.

For target shooting, most competent archers will be able to hit a 1m target at 20m >75% of the time, loosing in time with a 12/minute count.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#160

Post by eupharis » Sun, Jun 10, 2012, 4:07 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #112

twelvechairs wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't like games talking about how 'realistic' they will be. Firstly, because anything that runs on a standard computer will be far from reality anyway, and secondly because often users don't actually want reality (eg. most FPSs have far from realistic walking speeds - for good reason. Also stylised graphics etc.). That said, the concept of different styles of swordplay is great - and having more 'reali…

Don't get bogged down in the pedantry of realism. When 'realism' is mentioned in gaming, it really means 'realism that assists immersion'. You'll occasionally see articles about balancing realism versus gameplay - if something is real enough to turn you off the game (like boredom from slow movement speed), then it's reducing your immersion.

Johan Andersson, the designer of historical strategy games (Europa Universalis), put it best: "When realism gets in the way of fun, fun wins."