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Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

reuters.com

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Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#261

Post by ffgjgf1 »

DEADMINCE wrote: post #246
ffgjgf1 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So instead of losing 5% or so of their revenue in the EU they’d rather lose > 80-90% seems like a smart business decision… In any case (not quite the same but gives a glimpse into their mindset) they have zero issues with kowtowing to authoritarian regimes like those in Russia or China

> So instead of losing 5% or so of their revenue in the EU they’d rather lose > 80-90% seems like a smart business decision… Not sure where you're pulling that 5% figure from, but the EU wants to fine companies like Apple a much larger percentage of their global revenue, not just EU revenue. If the fines the EU wants to impose are greater than Apple's profit in the EU, indeed it would be a smart business decision to…

Good thing the fines are optional and can be negotiated down when apple starts complying with the regulations.

> EU wants to fine companies like Apple a much larger percentage

They could do that, that in no way means that they are planning to

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#262

Post by DEADMINCE »

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #255
DEADMINCE wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Certainly always, in the case of companies like Apple. No, lol. If Apple pulls out of the EU, they won't have any official presence, period. > They either lose > 95% of their sales in the EU or comply with their regulations. Or bypass them by pulling out. > Is not sold on physical media these days. Yeah, that was the point. Re-read the comment in context.

> they won't have any official presence, period. So they’d lose 20% of their global revenue just out of spite? Can you name a single rational reason why’d they do that? > Or bypass How? They won’t be able to sell directly to EU customers… > Re-read the comment in context. It just doesn’t make any sense. Apple wouldn’t be able to sell to clients in the EU on a large scale. It just wouldn’t work due to perfectly obviou…

> So they’d lose 20% of their global revenue just out of spite? Can you name a single rational reason why’d they do that?

If EU fines exceed EU revenue.

> How? They won’t be able to sell directly to EU customers…

The EU would have to police its own citizens from going outsize their walls and buying iPhones from literally any other country.

> It just doesn’t make any sense. Apple wouldn’t be able to sell to clients in the EU on a large scale.

So it made sense, and you understood fine, you just disagreed and decided to be obtuse about it. Sigh.

The point was simply that the EU can't touch a company in another country with no presence in the EU, even if EU citizens are buying from it.

All they can do is try and block payments to it, firewall it off, and similar things.

So sure, the EU could police its citizens buying iPhones online, but that's going to be an awful lot of work considering all the third party sellers, and I don't think it would be terribly successful. Not without enforcement which would be extremely unpopular.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#263

Post by DEADMINCE »

nottorp wrote: post #258
DEADMINCE wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The little indie studios that I buy my games from are all pay once? Why are you going out of your way to disingenuously interpret comments? It's strangely super-defensive, your comment history shows it isn't a rare occurrence. No, maybe not the little indie studios you specifically buy your games from, but plenty of indie studios offer free to play games. Go browse Steam or something before commenting more on this…

> Go browse Steam or something before commenting more on this subject please. I don't look at free games, I'm not that rich. > No shit, business models evolve. That doesn't mean all free to play games are inherently predatory. That's honestly a very foolish assertion to try and make. But they are. And not only for the whales that pay 2000 for the hats. Do you realize that any "free" title is designed to waste your ti…

> I don't look at free games, I'm not that rich.

Jesus christ lol. So, you're just confirming here you had no clue what you were talking about. You get that, right?

You're making very bold claims based on assumptions and misunderstanding, for something you don't even browser or participate in. Your initials aren't DK by any chance, are they?

> And not only for the whales that pay 2000 for the hats.

Sure, anyone that can afford it and wants it will. Most people might just pay for a few $20 hats though, and get more enjoyment out of it than say 3 of their $8 cups of coffee.

> Do you realize that any "free" title is designed to waste your time to keep you playing?

I mean, that'ss true in some cases, and I'd say that's true of the biggest free to play games pushed by the buggest companies with a history of being shady, but again (and this is key): that doesn't describe all free to play games.

You're doing the equivilant of insisting all operating systems must be unstable and crash because Windows used to.

> Why do you think they are all endless $ACTIVITY or competitive multiplayer? Is your time worth that little?

I play free to play games to jump on and have a break. I'v played FPS games since I was a kid and find it a good way to destress. I see no problem in doing something I enjoy and would hardly call that a waste of time.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#264

Post by DEADMINCE »

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #261
DEADMINCE wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So instead of losing 5% or so of their revenue in the EU they’d rather lose > 80-90% seems like a smart business decision… Not sure where you're pulling that 5% figure from, but the EU wants to fine companies like Apple a much larger percentage of their global revenue, not just EU revenue. If the fines the EU wants to impose are greater than Apple's profit in the EU, indeed it would be a smart business decision to…

Good thing the fines are optional and can be negotiated down when apple starts complying with the regulations. > EU wants to fine companies like Apple a much larger percentage They could do that, that in no way means that they are planning to

> Good thing the fines are optional and can be negotiated down

Source? Which of the fines so far have been negotiated down?

> when apple starts complying with the regulations.

Heh. Or, Apple just starts withdrawing from spaces in the EU because they don't like the EU's behavior. For example, they are withdrawing from the AI space citing that exact reason.

If they are already pulling out of cashcows like AI, is it that much a stretch to think they could withdraw entirely?

Not to mention Apple consideres the regulations to be unclear given the the EC seem to want Apple to figure out the 'spirit' of the law and comply with that instead.

> They could do that, that in no way means that they are planning to

They already do that. Look at what the max fines for say DMA or GDPR allow for. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume all your previous replies are because you haven't actually done this yet.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#265

Post by carlosjobim »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #237
carlosjobim wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physically, Apple does not hinder you from doing anything you want with your device. If you take out the chips and put in other components, that's your business, not Apples. If you manage to hack the software on the Apple chip to work exactly as you prefer, Apple cannot do anything. But what hackers are demanding is that Apple alter their software to work exactly as they want and assist them with this, even though mo…

First off, not putting in DRM is less work. And user control over keys is not hard. They wouldn't need to make anything worse. But really it's about reasonable fit-for-use regulations. That burger needs to be edible. The restaurant has to follow fire codes, even though that takes extra work. Both of those are orders of magnitude harder, as a percentage of cost, than letting the user control their own device. An even…

Apple and other device manufacturers are following a ton of regulations for how electronic devices have to behave, and interface on the airwaves. You wouldn't demand McDonald's to let you into the kitchen and cook your food exactly to your liking, so why should Apple be forced to do the same?

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#266

Post by ffgjgf1 »

DEADMINCE wrote: post #262
ffgjgf1 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they won't have any official presence, period. So they’d lose 20% of their global revenue just out of spite? Can you name a single rational reason why’d they do that? > Or bypass How? They won’t be able to sell directly to EU customers… > Re-read the comment in context. It just doesn’t make any sense. Apple wouldn’t be able to sell to clients in the EU on a large scale. It just wouldn’t work due to perfectly obviou…

> So they’d lose 20% of their global revenue just out of spite? Can you name a single rational reason why’d they do that? If EU fines exceed EU revenue. > How? They won’t be able to sell directly to EU customers… The EU would have to police its own citizens from going outsize their walls and buying iPhones from literally any other country. > It just doesn’t make any sense. Apple wouldn’t be able to sell to clients in…

> If EU fines exceed EU revenue

They won’t. Also you’re assuming that Apple’s management is irrational and petulant, because if not it should be “if the cost of compliance with EU regulations exceeds their EU revenue/net income” which isn’t going to be even remotely true.

> obtuse about it

Not at all. It’s just that this seems fairly obvious to me:

A very small fraction of people buying iPhones in Europe now would buy them if they had to ship them from outside the EU, pay the VAT themselves and have no warranty/support.

So sure it won’t be 100%, just 80-90% which doesn’t change anything

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#267

Post by DEADMINCE »

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #266
DEADMINCE wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So they’d lose 20% of their global revenue just out of spite? Can you name a single rational reason why’d they do that? If EU fines exceed EU revenue. > How? They won’t be able to sell directly to EU customers… The EU would have to police its own citizens from going outsize their walls and buying iPhones from literally any other country. > It just doesn’t make any sense. Apple wouldn’t be able to sell to clients in…

> If EU fines exceed EU revenue They won’t. Also you’re assuming that Apple’s management is irrational and petulant, because if not it should be “if the cost of compliance with EU regulations exceeds their EU revenue/net income” which isn’t going to be even remotely true. > obtuse about it Not at all. It’s just that this seems fairly obvious to me: A very small fraction of people buying iPhones in Europe now would bu…

> They won’t.

You're awfully cocksure with nothing to back it up.

Apple's global revenue in 2023 was about 120 billion. EU revenue was 24 billion. DMA allows fines up to 10% of global revenue. Two max fines under the DMA is already more than their EU profit.

> Also you’re assuming that Apple’s management is irrational and petulantv

I'm not the one making an assumption here. I'm saying if x then y which is perfectly reasonable. You're saying x would *NEVER* happen, which I would consider foolish.

I think Apple will comply with the EU to a point, I agree they are not trying to leave the EU at all. But ultimately they are still a US company and follow US leadership, who may want to do things or try and circumvent EU policies in a way they think are fine, but the EU doesn't.

I mean, there was already a clash with their first fine, it won't be surprising if more come.

I also really think you are being dismissive and downplaying their decision to not enter the AI market in the EU.

> It’s just that this seems fairly obvious to me:

> A very small fraction of people buying iPhones in Europe now would buy them if they had to ship them from outside the EU, pay the VAT themselves and have no warranty/support.

> So sure it won’t be 100%, just 80-90% which doesn’t change anything

I'm so confused at what point you are making here. You're saying EU citizens, if Apple left the EU, would just, and to quote "ship them from outside the EU, pay the VAT themselves and have no warranty/support."

Is this correct? Because that has been specifically the point I was making. Jesus. My point though, to clarify again, is if they do that, Apple won't be subject to any EU rules. All those iPhones bought outside the EU won't have 3rd party app stores, for example, and the EU would be powerless to enforce that. Seriously. That's the point I made several comments ago that you decided to dispute. Which now you are making yourself?

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#268

Post by ffgjgf1 »

DEADMINCE wrote: post #259
ffgjgf1 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would Apple willingly choose to lose 20% of their revenue instead of 2%? That’s simply not rational i.e. absurd

It's only absurd because you chose absurd numbers to use. Where are you getting that 2% figure from? The entire issue is that EU fines take from global revenue, not EU revenue. This is very simple. If EU fines are greater than EU revenue, it would be absurd for Apple not to leave.

> getting that 2% figure from

It’s a rough not very educated estimate of what proportion of their global revenue Apple might lose by complying with the regulations ( I’d personally bet it’s significantly less than that). Do you have a better figure?

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#269

Post by DEADMINCE »

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #268
DEADMINCE wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only absurd because you chose absurd numbers to use. Where are you getting that 2% figure from? The entire issue is that EU fines take from global revenue, not EU revenue. This is very simple. If EU fines are greater than EU revenue, it would be absurd for Apple not to leave.

> getting that 2% figure from It’s a rough not very educated estimate of what proportion of their global revenue Apple might lose by complying with the regulations ( I’d personally bet it’s significantly less than that). Do you have a better figure?

> Do you have a better figure?

Yes, clearly, and I mentioned it numerous times.

Once again, you're just making assumptions. So, all this time you've just assuming the max fines won't apply - that's the entire crux of your argument, right?

As where I've been talking about a situation where the max fines are being imposed.

I really don't think you're reading or keeping the context of the discussion in mind when replying. I have no other explanation for you assuming 2% and asking if I have a better figure in spite of me specifically citing the max fine number as a prerequisite for my scenario numerous times.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#270

Post by Dylan16807 »

carlosjobim wrote: post #265
Dylan16807 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, not putting in DRM is less work. And user control over keys is not hard. They wouldn't need to make anything worse. But really it's about reasonable fit-for-use regulations. That burger needs to be edible. The restaurant has to follow fire codes, even though that takes extra work. Both of those are orders of magnitude harder, as a percentage of cost, than letting the user control their own device. An even…

Apple and other device manufacturers are following a ton of regulations for how electronic devices have to behave, and interface on the airwaves. You wouldn't demand McDonald's to let you into the kitchen and cook your food exactly to your liking, so why should Apple be forced to do the same?

So your analogy clearly isn't comparing the McDonald's kitchen to an iPhone factory. I'm not asking to alter anything on the production lines, and I'm not asking for any customization before I take the iPhone home.

The analogy is more like comparing the McDonald's kitchen to the iPhone itself? In that case the answer is obvious. I don't own the kitchen, but I do own the iPhone.

But to elaborate on burgers, since you keep making wild extrapolations, all I would demand is that the burgers not have DRM on them (or Food Rights Management?). Thankfully nobody has invented that yet. But imagine if you couldn't combine your own drink with a McDonald's burger, at home. If that kind of anti-consumer practice was possible, I guarantee you'd see it implemented. And we should not treat it as a right of the restaurant as long as they don't "physically" prevent you from doing it. Outlaw it as soon as it seems like it could be possible.

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