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Let's stop counting centuries

dynomight.net

411–420 of 449 posts

Re: Let's stop counting centuries

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For anyone not living in the US So what I am hearing is that sure, it makes perfect sense for US citizens to continue using Fahrenheit.

US residents... If you, as a US citizen, settle abroad, be prepared to run into a wall with Fahrenheits. People in the rest of the world don't have the intuitive grasp whether 50 degrees Fahrenheit is warm or cold.

> US residents

Yeah that's the right terminology. I knew it when I said citizens it wasn't quite right but I blanked on the right answer. 'Residents' is pretty obvious.

> be prepared to run into a wall with Fahrenheits

I agree it's worth knowing just enough about celsius to use it casually when you are traveling. e.g. I just remember 20 is room temperature and every 5C is about 10F. Close enough. And remembering '6' is enough to remember how km and miles are related.

Anyone who is settling abroad ought to be able to pick up intuitive celsius in a couple days. When everyone around you uses the same measuring unit, you adapt pretty quickly IME.

Re: Let's stop counting centuries

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> only for the reason that everyone else is using it That is an honest answer, which is refreshing. Beside that, there is not really any particular reason that the US has to make SI mandatory. We adopted SI nearly 50 years ago, we just did not make it mandatory . The US has a bit of national identity which leans towards rebelling, so making SI mandatory would probably be contentions anyway. And it's just not worth th…

Temperature is easy, probably the easiest unit to convert... Everyone would get used to it pretty soon after they started using it regularly. There would be some legacy systems out there which would annoying to convert (which is already the case) but within a generation nobody would bother with Fahrenheit at all. I think the hardest unit to convert is probably length as there is not only a bunch of legacy systems and…

> american tools

That's an interesting way to phrase it. I, and everyone I know, have both metric and SAE tools. At least for wrenches & sockets.

> I need to stop and think before I know which is smaller a five eights or a three quarters.

I'm with you there. I've gotten in the habit of just mentally converting every SAE size to 32nds. I wouldn't really mind losing SAE, but that is not happening. What really makes my blood pressure goes up is Ford ... they mix metric and SAE fasteners on their cars. WTF! Pick one! Subaru is at the other end, easy to work on because 10 & 12mm wrenches will work for maybe 9 out of 10 bolts or nuts.

Re: Let's stop counting centuries

#413
post #349

There is no such thing as a word for "1700s" in most European languages. Also in English it sounds weird, as you have to pronounce it "seventeen-hundreds" whereas the correct pronunciation is "one-thousand-seven-hundred". So 1700s is unsuitable for formal writing or speaking and doesn't map naturally to most languages of Western civilization. But yeah, I guess the author finds it hard to subtract 1 in his mind :) I c…

Seventeen-hundreds doesn't sound stilted at all, to this native English speaker. I would use this even in a very formal context, and certainly no one would bat an eye. One-thousand-seven-hundreds is almost certainly incorrect in English -- I would actually find this to be a very clear marker of not speaking English very well. Are you a native speaker? I find your claims rather bold and quite frankly incorrect. Also,…

In Swedish it's also very rare to count centuries. We say 1700-talet. Also 2000-talet (pronounced either tvåtusen-talet/twothousand-talet or tjugohundra-talet/twentyhundred-talet) would mainly refer to 2000-2100. To refer to 2000-2009 we say 00-talet (nollnoll-talet/zerozero-talet).

Re: Let's stop counting centuries

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me put it this way: Can you really blame someone for not knowing a historical fact that is completely irrelevant to their life, especially when they probably have more pressing concerns to learn and care about? We only have so many hours in a day and so many days in a lifetime, while knowledge is practically infinite.

You could say that about anything. I limited my initial statement to educated folks, and presumably those who would like to be one. /history/democracy/milestones -> relatively important.

Absolute rubbish. There are plenty of facts that it would be quite surprising for an educated person not to know. The date of the American Revolution is not one of those facts, except for Americans.

Just like it would be unusual for an educated person not to know when the Battle of Hastings was... unless they aren't British.

And that's about as close a country to America as you can get. Do you think the educated in Singapore or Kenya learn about the American Revolution? Hell even in the UK we did not spent a single history lesson on it. I'm not exaggerating.

Re: Let's stop counting centuries

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but that is just elitist bullshit. First, even if we accept your implicit premise, that it is a training hurdle only, there is enormous value in accessible science, literature and education. In our connected society and in a democracy everyone benefits from everybody else understanding more of our world. In software engineering we have a common understanding that accidental complexity reduces our ability t…

> I'm sorry, but that is just elitist bullshit. That's fine, the thought-stopping accusation of "elitism" doesn't bother me. It's a preoccupation for people preferring equality based on dumbing things for the lowest common denominator, lest - god forbid - someone has to make an effort. I don't think lowly and condescedingly of people like that, I think they're capable of learning and making the effort - they're just…

> This is like asking to simplify basic math for people who can’t be bothered to learn long division, thinking this will somehow allow them to do calculus.

Oh dang, you kinda sorta had me until here. This sways me towards @Perseid’s point. :P Math education is full of unnecessary mental friction, and it pushes lots of people away. We know that finding better, simpler ways to explain it does, statistically, allow more people to do calculus. Long division is a good example, because it’s one of the more common places kids separate & diverge between the ones who get it and the ones who don’t, and there are simpler alternatives to explaining long division than the curriculum you and I grew up with, alternatives that keep more people on the path of math literacy.

We can see similar outcomes all over, in civil and industrial design, and in software and games, from cars to road signs and building signs to user interface design - that making things easier to understand even by small amounts affects outcomes for large numbers of people, sometimes meaningfully affecting safety.

The numbering of centuries is admittedly a simple thing, but maybe it actually is unintentionally elitist, even if you don’t think condescendingly, to suggest people shouldn’t complain about a relatively small mental friction when having to convert between century and year? Yes most educated people can handle it without problems, but that doesn’t tell us enough about how many more people would enjoy it more or become educated if we smoothed out how we talk about it and make it slightly easier to talk about history. This particular example might not change many lives, but it adds up if we collectively improve the design of writing and education traditions, right? Especially if we start to consider the ~20% of neurodivergent people, and ~50% of less than average people.

> They do it because they never bothered

Why should people have to bother, if it’s not necessary? Your argument that some people are lazy might be deflecting. Is there a stronger argument to support the need to continue using this convention? Being able to read old history might be the strongest reason, but why should we waste energy and be okay excluding people, even if they are just lazy, by perpetuating a convention that has a better alternative?

Re: Let's stop counting centuries

#416
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nothing is important to know besides my lunch time..." yawn

This is such a boring dismissal of a very interesting subject - what information is important to whom and why. A pretty important reason for learning about the history of democracy is to learn how and why to preserve it.

This is the most boring knuckledragging subthread I’ve ever read here. Arguing we shouldn’t bother knowing anything but what’s underneath our nose, without qualifications. Not even a theoretically useful philosophy, such as solipsism is being espoused here.

All the while masquerading as intelligent conversation. It’s only interesting until you follow it to its conclusion. Anti-intellectualism in a nutshell, and you should be embarrassed to be seen in the vicinity. :D

Re: Let's stop counting centuries

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appeal to ignorance and anti-intellectualism, congrats.

Your problem is that, instead of encouraging people to learn, you're just dismissing people who don't know one very specific historical fact as "uneducated". People in Europe generally know that America is a democracy and many probably also know that it was the first modern one, but to an average European it doesn't matter that much that it happened in the 1770s as opposed to, say, the 1650s.

If you didn’t know it, why not learn it now? Here’s your opportunity, one of today’s 10k.

Arguing you shouldn’t need to learn it isn’t impressive in any shape or form. It’s middle-brow level (non)curiosity, and less than welcome here.

Re: Let's stop counting centuries

#418
post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

95% of the world uses Celcius without problems because they're used to it. You'd either also be fine with it or you belong to a sub-5th percentile which couldn't figure it out, take your pick.

> sub-5th percentile which couldn't figure it out Ironic, given that one of the prime arguments in favor of metric is that it is easier. Why do non-US people even care? And do y'all care that you are wrong ? The US has recognized the SI. Citizens continue to use measurements they are comfortable with, and it does not hurt anyone. We are also not the only nation that has adopted SI but not made it mandatory . The UK i…

What does "adopted" mean in that context? (serious question)

Re: Let's stop counting centuries

#419
post #175

It's funny that for me it feels right to associate the 20s with 2020 and the 40s with 1940, but somehow, the 30s is very foreign, and I can't think of 1930 or 2030 either.

Funny, when you say "20s" I think of the 1920s (aka the "Roaring 20s" here in the US). I wonder if it's an age thing (I'm in my 40s), or perhaps a cultural or regional thing. The 30s as 1930s seems pretty solid to me: US Great Depression, start of WWII, not to mention many of the smaller conflicts that led up to it.

You may get the point. My background as a Japanese in my 30s may affect how I perceive those periods. I have feelings for the 40s because WWII is mentioned often. For the 80s, even though I wasn't born yet, many people talk about it as the best period for Japan, so I have a concrete image of that too. And the 90s and 00s are when I was a kid/teenager so I have an emotional connection with the period. Other than these, I have weak connections and just think of the current or near-past periods.

Re: Let's stop counting centuries

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could say that about anything. I limited my initial statement to educated folks, and presumably those who would like to be one. /history/democracy/milestones -> relatively important.

Absolute rubbish. There are plenty of facts that it would be quite surprising for an educated person not to know. The date of the American Revolution is not one of those facts, except for Americans. Just like it would be unusual for an educated person not to know when the Battle of Hastings was... unless they aren't British. And that's about as close a country to America as you can get. Do you think the educated in S…

It’s not entirely surprising your country would prefer to forget that war. Disappointing perhaps but not surprising.

In my opinion, a battle is generally not important compared to a milestone of democracy. I learned about the Magna Carta in 1215 and saw a copy once and appreciate that knowledge.

But sure, keep arguing for ignorance and dismissing education if you’d like—we’ll enjoy the show here in posterity.

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