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First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

pme.uchicago.edu

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Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#11

Post by cogman10 »

s0rce wrote: post #8
alex_young wrote: post #6

Lithium extraction is also environmentally damaging, whether from the … brine extraction that pumps massive amounts of water to the surface to dry. That’s a bit of a stretch. Pumping water to the surface of a dry lakebed far from most life and letting it evaporate is pretty low on the environmental impact scale from mining. I wonder how that compares to sodium extraction.

I thought the issue with evaporative brine projects was mainly the water use in generally water scarce areas. There are direct extraction technologies that are better. Sodium you can just let the ocean evaporate in ponds, although this destroys wetlands (see for example a bunch of these around the SF Bay, some being restored to their native state).

Lithium is also extracted via ocean water evaporated in ponds. You do need a bed with a high concentrated amount of lithium near the ocean, those are not uncommon.

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#12

Post by bredren »

s0rce wrote: post #8
alex_young wrote: post #6

Lithium extraction is also environmentally damaging, whether from the … brine extraction that pumps massive amounts of water to the surface to dry. That’s a bit of a stretch. Pumping water to the surface of a dry lakebed far from most life and letting it evaporate is pretty low on the environmental impact scale from mining. I wonder how that compares to sodium extraction.

I thought the issue with evaporative brine projects was mainly the water use in generally water scarce areas. There are direct extraction technologies that are better. Sodium you can just let the ocean evaporate in ponds, although this destroys wetlands (see for example a bunch of these around the SF Bay, some being restored to their native state).

Right, I recall a question of native populations with limited access to water and then water shows up suddenly but for extracting the lithium.

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#13

Post by throwup238 »

popol12 wrote: post #3

Na4MnCr(PO4)3 Chromium is 5 times more abundant than Lithium in earth crust (0.01% vs 0.002%). Better, but not that much ? "Regular" sodium-ion batteries with prussian blue has, it seems, the great advantage of not using any scarce elements. It would be nice to have a comparison between this solid state chemistry and the regular one.

The difference in their geochemistry is substantial so even if chromium isn't technically that much more abundant, it's significantly easier to mine.

The Gibbs free energy of formation for chromium oxides and chromite is much more negative than for lithium-bearing minerals so Cr compounds are thermodynamically favored to precipitate out of melts and solutions, forming minerals with high concentrations that then get pushed up by other processes. Li+, with its lone valence electron, just doesn't form strong bonds or highly stable mineral phases in comparison. On top of that the diffusion coefficients for Cr species in magmas and rocks are generally orders of magnitude lower than for Li. Cr gets locked into crystal structures early and stays put, while Li keeps migrating and diffusing in the form of water soluble minerals. There's also a whole biogeochemical cycle for Cr involving microbes that can concentrate it in sediments.

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#14

Post by candiddevmike »

popol12 wrote: post #3

Na4MnCr(PO4)3 Chromium is 5 times more abundant than Lithium in earth crust (0.01% vs 0.002%). Better, but not that much ? "Regular" sodium-ion batteries with prussian blue has, it seems, the great advantage of not using any scarce elements. It would be nice to have a comparison between this solid state chemistry and the regular one.

> prussian blue

I recognized this as a paint color but didn't know this part. Fascinating substance, this was a very interesting Wikipedia rabbit hole:

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_blue

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#15

Post by turblety »

Great, yet another new battery revelation that will never come to market. Why is this? Why do we constantly hear of these amazing, technical advances, but yet we never see any of it come to market?

- Lithium-Sulfur Batteries

- Solid-State Batteries

- Sodium-Ion Batteries

- Aluminum-Ion Batteries

- Silicon Anode Batteries

- Magnesium-Ion Batteries

- Lithium-Air Batteries

- Zinc-Air Batteries

- Flow Batteries

- Graphene-Based Batteries

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#16

Post by cogman10 »

drdaeman wrote: post #7
jfengel wrote: post #4

I don't know much about electricity but surely an anode is necessary for electrons to flow? Sayeth Wikipedia, "Instead, it creates a metal anode the first time it is charged." Ok. I'm still not entirely clear on it but it makes some kinda sense.

Yea, it also confused me - "anode-free" suggests there is no anode, and to best of my understanding a battery needs two electrodes so there will be a circuit for the current to flow. The full Wikipedia quote is: "An anode-free battery (AFB) is one that is manufactured without an anode. Instead, it creates a metal anode the first time it is charged." It's sort of like "serverless" ;)

I think the way to understand it is that there isn't a special layer in the battery foil for making the anode. It's all chemically the same.

I mean, with the server-less analogy, it is sort of like the fact that you don't manage the creation and destruction of the VM, someone (something) is though.

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#17

Post by Tagbert »

turblety wrote: post #15

Great, yet another new battery revelation that will never come to market. Why is this? Why do we constantly hear of these amazing, technical advances, but yet we never see any of it come to market? - Lithium-Sulfur Batteries - Solid-State Batteries - Sodium-Ion Batteries - Aluminum-Ion Batteries - Silicon Anode Batteries - Magnesium-Ion Batteries - Lithium-Air Batteries - Zinc-Air Batteries - Flow Batteries - Graphen…

Some discoveries founder in the stage of figure out how to go from a science experiment to a process to manufacture actual batteries. Sometimes there are technical or economic issues that prevent commercialization.

Most of the research on this has only started in the last 10 years or so and it does take time to work out the kinks.

Even within the common Lithium-ion batteries, there have been constant improvements but it’s easy to miss the changes over time.

“Eternally five years away? No, batteries are improving under your nose” https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/eternally-five-years...

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#18

Post by cogman10 »

turblety wrote: post #15

Great, yet another new battery revelation that will never come to market. Why is this? Why do we constantly hear of these amazing, technical advances, but yet we never see any of it come to market? - Lithium-Sulfur Batteries - Solid-State Batteries - Sodium-Ion Batteries - Aluminum-Ion Batteries - Silicon Anode Batteries - Magnesium-Ion Batteries - Lithium-Air Batteries - Zinc-Air Batteries - Flow Batteries - Graphen…

Umm, a good number of those have hit the market.

Graphene anodes are pretty bog standard at this point in LiPo batteries.

Magnesium doping has also found its way into high density NMC batteries.

Sodium-ion batteries are currently being manufactured by CATL and in the ramping up phase.

You aren't seeing them because the chemistry of these batteries is usually only called "lithium ion" or "Sodium Ion" the various other chemicals are thrown into a soup of special sauce to raise battery density, cycle life, charge speed, etc.

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#19

Post by CamperBob2 »

turblety wrote: post #15

Great, yet another new battery revelation that will never come to market. Why is this? Why do we constantly hear of these amazing, technical advances, but yet we never see any of it come to market? - Lithium-Sulfur Batteries - Solid-State Batteries - Sodium-Ion Batteries - Aluminum-Ion Batteries - Silicon Anode Batteries - Magnesium-Ion Batteries - Lithium-Air Batteries - Zinc-Air Batteries - Flow Batteries - Graphen…

One reason seems to be that lithium-ion batteries are nowhere near as expensive and difficult to manufacture as advocates of the other battery technologies seem to want us to believe. Basically, the other batteries don't come to market because there is no market.

And as the other poster suggests, quite a bit of R&D does make it into existing devices in one form or another. All of these technologies are worth exploring, but the notion that replacing present lithium battery tech is super urgent is not actually correct.

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#20

Post by hulitu »

turblety wrote: post #15

Great, yet another new battery revelation that will never come to market. Why is this? Why do we constantly hear of these amazing, technical advances, but yet we never see any of it come to market? - Lithium-Sulfur Batteries - Solid-State Batteries - Sodium-Ion Batteries - Aluminum-Ion Batteries - Silicon Anode Batteries - Magnesium-Ion Batteries - Lithium-Air Batteries - Zinc-Air Batteries - Flow Batteries - Graphen…

Propaganda ? Someone has an agenda. /s

TBH, there are a lot of "news" with conditional: might, could etc. The sad thing is that they generate (spam) discussions on HN.

But hey, after all, maybe that's their purpose.

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