First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#1

Post by givinguflac » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 4:01 PM UTC

First anode-free sodium solid-state battery
pme.uchicago.edu

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#2

Post by jonplackett » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 5:03 PM UTC

Hoping this is a genuine breakthrough, but expecting the first comment to point out some important thing this battery can’t do in the real world…

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#3

Post by popol12 » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 5:07 PM UTC

Na4MnCr(PO4)3

Chromium is 5 times more abundant than Lithium in earth crust (0.01% vs 0.002%). Better, but not that much ?

"Regular" sodium-ion batteries with prussian blue has, it seems, the great advantage of not using any scarce elements. It would be nice to have a comparison between this solid state chemistry and the regular one.

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#4

Post by jfengel » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 5:09 PM UTC

I don't know much about electricity but surely an anode is necessary for electrons to flow?

Sayeth Wikipedia, "Instead, it creates a metal anode the first time it is charged."

Ok. I'm still not entirely clear on it but it makes some kinda sense.

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#5

Post by fbdab103 » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 5:12 PM UTC

popol12 wrote: post #3

Na4MnCr(PO4)3 Chromium is 5 times more abundant than Lithium in earth crust (0.01% vs 0.002%). Better, but not that much ? "Regular" sodium-ion batteries with prussian blue has, it seems, the great advantage of not using any scarce elements. It would be nice to have a comparison between this solid state chemistry and the regular one.

Not sure it is a 1:1 equivalent, but this site[0] claims global chromium production is at 41 million metric tons while lithium is 180,000 metric tons. So, the supply chain already exists.

[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/598320/mine-production-o...

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#6

Post by alex_young » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 5:16 PM UTC

  Lithium extraction is also environmentally damaging, whether from the … brine extraction that pumps massive amounts of water to the surface to dry.

That’s a bit of a stretch. Pumping water to the surface of a dry lakebed far from most life and letting it evaporate is pretty low on the environmental impact scale from mining. I wonder how that compares to sodium extraction.

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#7

Post by drdaeman » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 5:16 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #4

I don't know much about electricity but surely an anode is necessary for electrons to flow? Sayeth Wikipedia, "Instead, it creates a metal anode the first time it is charged." Ok. I'm still not entirely clear on it but it makes some kinda sense.

Yea, it also confused me - "anode-free" suggests there is no anode, and to best of my understanding a battery needs two electrodes so there will be a circuit for the current to flow. The full Wikipedia quote is: "An anode-free battery (AFB) is one that is manufactured without an anode. Instead, it creates a metal anode the first time it is charged."

It's sort of like "serverless" ;)

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#8

Post by s0rce » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 5:19 PM UTC

alex_young wrote: post #6

Lithium extraction is also environmentally damaging, whether from the … brine extraction that pumps massive amounts of water to the surface to dry. That’s a bit of a stretch. Pumping water to the surface of a dry lakebed far from most life and letting it evaporate is pretty low on the environmental impact scale from mining. I wonder how that compares to sodium extraction.

I thought the issue with evaporative brine projects was mainly the water use in generally water scarce areas. There are direct extraction technologies that are better. Sodium you can just let the ocean evaporate in ponds, although this destroys wetlands (see for example a bunch of these around the SF Bay, some being restored to their native state).

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#9

Post by g15jv2dp » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 5:21 PM UTC

alex_young wrote: post #6

Lithium extraction is also environmentally damaging, whether from the … brine extraction that pumps massive amounts of water to the surface to dry. That’s a bit of a stretch. Pumping water to the surface of a dry lakebed far from most life and letting it evaporate is pretty low on the environmental impact scale from mining. I wonder how that compares to sodium extraction.

There are several issues with brine extraction, including intensive water usage, and atmospheric pollution (the extraction releases e.g. sulphur dioxide).

Re: First anode-free sodium solid-state battery

#10

Post by alex_young » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 5:23 PM UTC

s0rce wrote: post #8

alex_young wrote: post #6

Lithium extraction is also environmentally damaging, whether from the … brine extraction that pumps massive amounts of water to the surface to dry. That’s a bit of a stretch. Pumping water to the surface of a dry lakebed far from most life and letting it evaporate is pretty low on the environmental impact scale from mining. I wonder how that compares to sodium extraction.

I thought the issue with evaporative brine projects was mainly the water use in generally water scarce areas. There are direct extraction technologies that are better. Sodium you can just let the ocean evaporate in ponds, although this destroys wetlands (see for example a bunch of these around the SF Bay, some being restored to their native state).

With lithium they are pumping deep water up to the surface, not adding any. The water holds the lithium and is part of a massive ancient aquifer.