Live data from Hacker News

My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

blog.emacsen.net

121–130 of 175 posts

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#121

That's not a call for single-sex education. That's a call for good teachers who are willing to crack down on the class clown. There's always a class clown, and he always needs to be cracked down upon for the good of the class. This is teaching 101. Sorry you didn't have a good teacher. >Dave was really excited by the class, and, like me and the other volunteers, had a lot of experience with Python. Sounds like Dave w…

Agreed. All classes are derailed by jerks like this, not just women-only classes. Everyone rolls their eyes and tunes out, not just females.

And a simple "let's save the rest of these questions for after class" to the jerk is often effective.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competent men do not 'show of their skills, brag and one-up other men'. Yes, they may be technically competent, but they are socially incompetent, because they never progressed beyond that juvenile behavior. I'd gladly drive them away.

Competent men do not 'show of their skills, brag and one-up other men'. Yes they most certainly do. Yes, they may be technically competent, but they are socially incompetent, because they never progressed beyond that juvenile behavior. Ok, now you have admitted that technically competent men may in fact exhibit those behaviors, so now you're saying they are "socially incompetent." You are wrong in both cases, highly…

Wow, sorry, I didn't realize you were a brogrammer

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#123
I've been around similar buzzkills in person (been one, perhaps?), and I wonder what precisely is going on.

What is the mechanism behind smarty-pants-Dave's suppression of others' enthusiasm?

Was it that he was raising issues that weren't relevant to others' learning?

Or did something in his mannerism suggest contempt for those who knew less Python than him?

Or, did people become suddenly skeptical of the authority or competence of the instructor Dave questioned?

I second the observation that in the right environment, attention and interest would increase, as people look for ways to give annoying-Dave his comeuppance.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#124
post #94

Dear HNers, Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enroll…

Well; it would take more than anecdotal evidence for one thing. It's very easy for sensitive issues to be dominated by emotional anecdotes, to the point where only group think is tolerated and any sort of valid challenge is labeled. I often wish as a community we could use Crocker's rules ( http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Crocker%27s_rules ) for this kind of thing. It would make for more interesting discussions.

Anyway, I don't think people pick apart these blog posts because they're unwilling to accept there's a "gender bias" (whatever that actually means). Rather they pick these posts apart because there are very obvious holes in the original posts' reasoning. In this case, it's that because some guy was vaguely an overcompetitive jerk, somehow that means we need to isolate the sexes. Because apparently women are incapable of being overcompetitive jerks, and it (obviously) has to be a male/female dynamic.

That's kind of a leap!

Here's the other thing, and this is kind of a tangent, but a theme I see with a lot of these blog posts isn't that someone was actively hostile, but rather, that someone did something "offensive". With "offensive" ranging from things that are obviously very unprofessional to incredibly tame things that someone just didn't like. And to that I'd just say this: its your choice to be offended by things. And its your choice how you react to that. I've been "offended" by many things other programmers have said, but I don't go "well programming isn't for me!". I just think less of those people. I don't think female sensibilities are so frail that they aren't by and large the same way.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#125
Was it me or was that article written in a rather simplistic and childish way? 'All was good and well, something a bit odd but funny happened, but then this jerk came along and he started to ruin everything!'

Near the end he suddenly jumped really fast to his conclusion, namely that he supports women-only groups (or, as he likes to spell it, 'women only groups'), but he really doesn't explain why other than saying that it offers a more comfortable entrance to them. He doesn't link his conclusion to the rest of the article, and I don't see how this specific occurrence adds to the conclusion. Because the jerk happened to be male? I'd like to address him for overgeneralizing males, but he just straight out avoids being clear about it.

But even if it was safe to say that only males act like jerks, that still does not mean that every male is like that, and it certainly doesn't mean women should be kept separated from males in education. If a male is being a jerk, the problem is that he's being a jerk, not the fact that he's a male. I fail to see why to differ between male and female and the article does not make it clear in the slightest.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is probably why pwpwp didn't specifically refer to the self-selected women in the class, but made a general point about the industry and the ridiculous attempts to impose a completely artificial 50/50 gender ratio. The comic could have just as easily said "one girl is good at math therefore exactly as many girls as boys are good at math."

While I agree a 50-50 gender ratio seems artificial at the moment, fact of the matter is the tech industry is becoming one of the great sources of power in society (think skynet). I think for the sake of civilization, we should try to involve women as much as we can and aim for the 50-50.

"I think for the sake of civilization, we should try to involve women as much as we can and aim for the 50-50."

Why? How so?

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#128
post #4

That bully is a reason why on railsgirls events you have tables for differen skill levels. You could easily send that guy to another table with more advanced people without throwing him out.

I agree with your solution. I don't agree with all the nomenclature of calling this guy, who is said to be enthusiastic and excited about the class, a "bully" because he is participating enthusiastically. I think that is actually a use of framing language and is an attack, and bullying, upon enthusiastic learners.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understood, it seems like Dave wasn't asking questions to better understand the material. His intent was to stump the instructor of the class, validating his mastery of the material.

Are you making an independent observation (ie, you were at the workshop and observed Dave) or repeating what was in the writeup? Also, I'm genuinely curious: how do you tell the difference? What's the difference between Dave's (presumed) "stump the instructor to validate ego" questions and my "push the edges of my understanding, which may happen to stump the instructor if they haven't thought about it, and which may…

It sounds to me (someone with a fair amount of teaching experience) like Dave was an enthusiastic student. Without seeing a transcript or video, it seems more likely Dave had a lot of things he wasn't clear on regarding Python and was excited to have a chance to ask an expert (the teacher) a lot of questions to clarify his understanding.

In a basic intro class, this can be a problem because other students will start to think they are in the wrong class and don't understand the material and drop out! A common example is language classes. You have a college German 101 class and a bunch of people show up that are native German speakers looking to get an easy A. Or they had 3 years in high school, or lived there a while with their military parents on base, and are looking for a refresher and thought 101 was a good place.

If the teacher lets these students (who are not jerks, bullies or douches any more than I think this Dave was) proceed at their own pace, then the rest of the students will leave in frustration. That happens a lot and the teachers often like it because then they can teach at a more fun higher level with students who already know the material. But it's not fair to the actual intro students.

This also happens a lot in engineering classes where schools pretty much have to assume students have learned basic programming, soldering, and electricity on their own before enrolling in engineering school. In this case it is probably best to let the students who were never interested enough in the topic to study it previously, just drop out.

In this particular case I agree with the suggestion made here by another that students be put into basic/advanced tracks or Dave be encouraged to take another class. Another route to take, which is what I do, is to say "Dave, these are really excellent and interesting questions, but they are way above the introductory level of this class. I'd like to keep things for now on a more basic level since many people here are just getting into programming for the first time, but I'd definitely be more than happy to talk with you in detail about these issues during office hours. Is that OK?"

The solution of labeling him a "bully" and calls for "kicking him out" of the class are irresponsible, immature and signs of an unskilled unprofessional teacher. But it's what goes on at many American primary schools. If you have an excited, intellectually interested first grader who asks a lot of questions, most American teachers will personally diagnose the child with "ADHD" and demand the parents put him on amphetamines to zone him out so he won't keep asking questions and will sit and listen because that's what you do in school nowadays. Sit down, shut up, be quiet, and do as you are told. An approach that most of the posters in this thread seem to approve of given their hatred for poor curious Dave.

Re: My experiences at a woman's programming workshop

#130

The part of the post that intrigued me was when she... "[Looked] at her screen, she’d made significant progress towards finishing the project, but when she asked me a question she giggled and told me she had no idea what the project was about, or what to do. Why? I still don’t know the reason. Studies have shown that especially bright women have this reaction to difficult material and that women learning computer sci…

Do they do better because of a lack or male interaction, or because they aren't going to be challenged as much? Because sooner or later, they have to leave academia and wake up to the realities of the real world, where Dave isn't only being a dick in meetings but is trying to take your next promotion to become your manager.
Post reply on HN