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Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

jogmekeebs.com

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Re: Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

#21

Post by gadgetoid »

jogme wrote: post #8
Ballas wrote: post #3

Interesting, I have found the standard key spacing too far apart, I cannot fathom it being too close for some. I guess hand size variance is bigger than I think. Could you explain what you did to achieve "diodeless" design and how do you prevent masking?

> Could you explain what you did to achieve "diodeless" design and how do you prevent masking? I was not precise with the "diodeless" definition - the keys are directly connected to the processor pins without using a matrix. (Therefore there are no side effects of the matrix design - ghosting, masking, key rollover. The key presses are more precise and for me they seem more responsive - less latency, but unfortunatel…

I could believe you feel less latency, but suspect that’s more a symptom of matrix scanning working for the general case rather than being optimised for your layout. Scan with an RP2040’s PIO [1] and after debouncing I’d challenge you to measure the difference, much less notice it.

(Of course if you’ve got the pins, you should use ‘em!)

1. https://github.com/isoxliis/firmware-micropython/blob/72687e...

Re: Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

#22

Post by jbarberu »

jogme wrote: post #8
Ballas wrote: post #3

Interesting, I have found the standard key spacing too far apart, I cannot fathom it being too close for some. I guess hand size variance is bigger than I think. Could you explain what you did to achieve "diodeless" design and how do you prevent masking?

> Could you explain what you did to achieve "diodeless" design and how do you prevent masking? I was not precise with the "diodeless" definition - the keys are directly connected to the processor pins without using a matrix. (Therefore there are no side effects of the matrix design - ghosting, masking, key rollover. The key presses are more precise and for me they seem more responsive - less latency, but unfortunatel…

Having implemented a custom matrix in qmk, I can say the timescale involved is not something you'd notice a difference between diodes vs diodeless. On ARM boards there's a setup delay to let the gpio propagate before reading the columns, which by default is set to 0.25us, which means reading 4 rows would take about 1us.

I built a macropad that has some regular keys and a SNES controller on the "same matrix", total scan time is 335us, which is dead slow as far as scanning goes, but nothing you'd be able to notice.

Other points are fair though, fewer parts in the BOM. Though routing is a bit trickier with diodeless, especially if you also want to adressable RGB.

Re: Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

#23

Post by mnmalst »

zamalek wrote: post #14
jogme wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The human is not perfectly symmetrical by a vertical line - same as our faces! Do you have the project somewhere online to share - git, blog, reddit, etc.? I would like to have a follow up on your progress!

Thanks for the interest, it's on the back burner at the moment because I'm currently rage-coding a text editor :). Here's the repo regardless https://codeberg.org/jcdickinson/hexkbd

Was wondering what "rage coding" means. After seeing your codeberg profile picture I have an idea now... :D

Re: Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

#24

Post by setopt »

setopt wrote: post #16
weinzierl wrote: post #2

I find it interesting that there was a time when everyone seemed to get overboard with thumb keys and that now things seem to settle at two per hand.

MacBook keyboards have a similar modifier layout to a Space Cadet in some ways: On your left hand, there’s {Cmd, Opt, Ctrl, Fn} in a row. Emacs on MacOS can use all four modifiers, e.g. mapping them to the historical {Ctrl, Meta, Super, Hyper} keys that were in the same place on a Space Cadet.

Note that this is slightly different from PC keyboards. On Mac, Fn as a modifier is handled by the OS and can be remapped (in System Settings or by individual apps like Emacs). On most PC keyboards, Fn causes different signals to be sent to the OS, making it very hard to use it for other purposes than intended.

Re: Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

#25

Post by smeej »

I've yet to wrap my mind around two things that are extremely common on "ergonomic" keyboards: ortholinear keys, and the positions of the C, X, and Z keys in the columns.

I type those with my index, middle, and ring fingers, respectively, because when I pull my fingers back toward my wrists with my hands sitting at a neutral angle, those are the keys they pass. Moving from A to Z on a regular keyboard would be a disaster of a hand position!

Who is it who's teaching people to type that way on standard keyboards? I'm an elder Millennial, so the first class in my school that ever practiced typing in kindergarten, in the very early '90s. When and why did anyone switch to a horrible hand position?

It's only from that horrible hand position that I can imagine "keys in a straight line" being an improvement. My index fingers cover more than one column of keys, so staggering them makes all of them easier to reach, rather than one set really easy and the other set much more awkward. My fingers do not move in straight lines from coiled to uncoiled, and I doubt other people's do either. They splay as they extend. They should be able to cover more keys with less movement extended than they do coiled, so putting keys in straight lines makes it worse, not better.

Re: Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

#26

Post by jhardy54 »

Neat! I’m surprised to see no splay, is it just subtle or have you decided against it? The thumbs look comfy and aren’t tucked under the palm, which is my biggest complaint with most keyboards, but I’m using Miryoku (36 key layout) and I’m not sure that I’d know what to do with a 34-key layout.

(Miryoku has a kludge to let you press two thumb keys at once to emulate the third, for 34-key keyboards, but that works best with low-travel switches very close together.)

How do you like the lateral pinky position? I’m currently building a Dasbob and love the pinky splay/stagger, but I’m curious about moving the top pinky key to the right.

Re: Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

#27

Post by jhardy54 »

smeej wrote: post #25

I've yet to wrap my mind around two things that are extremely common on "ergonomic" keyboards: ortholinear keys, and the positions of the C, X, and Z keys in the columns. I type those with my index, middle, and ring fingers, respectively, because when I pull my fingers back toward my wrists with my hands sitting at a neutral angle, those are the keys they pass. Moving from A to Z on a regular keyboard would be a disa…

I agree, but would suggest that the solution is splayed columns rather than staggered rows. Lots of keyboards do this, even more “normal” keyboards that are far from being Dactyl-like: https://github.com/GEIGEIGEIST/TOTEM

Also relevant, but for improving the ergonomics of “normal” keyboards with staggered rows: angle mod. https://colemakmods.github.io/ergonomic-mods/angle.html

Re: Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

#28

Post by jhardy54 »

zamalek wrote: post #10

I'm currently designing a board from actual traces of my finger movements on paper (I was mildly amused when I found that they are not symmetrical, like all human features) in combination with these: https://fkcaps.com/keycaps/hex . It's also my first attempt at using a MCU directly (kinda, MDB50Q). Probably not possible to make a product from my anthropometrics, but I could try average out a few hands.

If you have a large enough touchscreen, I’d also recommend https://pashutk.com/ergopad/

(Note: this breaks down a bit once you move to concave key wells)

Re: Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

#29

Post by jhardy54 »

jogme wrote: post #11
weinzierl wrote: post #2

I find it interesting that there was a time when everyone seemed to get overboard with thumb keys and that now things seem to settle at two per hand.

Given the thumbs limited movement, I came to a conclusion that 2 keys are comfortably reachable, but to reach the third thumb key, the thumb needs to get into a weird and uncomfortable position. That was my problem with the corne I had and I just stopped using the innermost thumb key because of that. Do you have a similar experience?

Thumb tuck is awful, and is one of my biggest complaints with Corne-style keyboards. I’m building a Dasbob in the hopes that the thumb arc is more comfortable, but we’ll see.

Re: Show HN: I made a split keyboard for large palms

#30

Post by wahnfrieden »

I have "XXL" size hands (some fingers push against tips of most XL gloves I try) and I find the Glove80 very comfortable fwiw

https://www.moergo.com

Switched from Kinesis Advantage after 15 years. Love the Pro Red config that's available out of box without expensive customization.

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