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The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

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Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#121

Post by achenet »

Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

https://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html

If you want to write good software, get it in front of someone who will actually use it as soon as possible.

Get it in front of many people who use it as soon as possible.

No matter how smart you are, you can't anticipate every user need. Let the users tell you what they need.

To do that, you need to ship.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#122

Post by treve »

manmal wrote: post #29
treve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire comment reads as someone who has a purely adversarial relationship with their coworkers with little trust. Sounds exhausting!

Seeing you‘re a CTO, I‘m a bit concerned for your staff (if any) if your first reflex is blaming the developer for not trusting their boss.

Not my intent to assign blame, it just sounds like a toxic workplace. I've been there!

The better places I've worked were more focused on compromise, experimentation and taking shared responsibility for risk.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#123

Post by achenet »

fabioborellini wrote: post #111
portaouflop wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium, have generally much more relaxed work schedules than managers or any customer facing role. If you screw over your health working in a toxic environment that’s on you IMO - as tech worker you probably have more opportunities to improve your working conditions t…

Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others. My first job as a developer made me work around the clock, day and night, for a below average (nationwide compared) salary. And I got yelled at. Since I didn't have enough work experience, my applications weren't responded to. There were no ways to improve conditions without cha…

I'm sorry to hear that.

I had a similarly shitty first job, although I was lucky to be in France, which was very strict worker protection laws, so "working day and night" was 'only' 10 hour days. However, after like 8 months there I was able to get another job - it doesn't take much experience for recruiters to start reaching out on LinkedIn aparantly.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#124

Post by purple-leafy »

langsoul-com wrote: post #55

Isn't this more a lesson of keeping your cards close to your chest? There's a very good reason why people are on guard with pitch decks. Cause those very people you pitched could just take the idea and throw money at it.

I highly disagree. 99.99% of peoples SaaS ideas aren’t innovative.

It’s more about the people, their resources, their experience.

I’d say this is a misinformed opinion, maybe from lack of experience.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#125

Post by lazyasciiart »

Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

Good news - once you work at a large enough company, this flips to "your job is to finagle your way through a million different safety and security checks at every step in order to write a few lines of code and get them shipped before a pivot and/or re-org makes them irrelevant to your new managers goals".

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#126

Post by treve »

Culonavirus wrote: post #113
treve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire comment reads as someone who has a purely adversarial relationship with their coworkers with little trust. Sounds exhausting!

Sounds exhausting? Sounds like gaslighting a wee bit... Oh nooo... the poor managers, how will they manage if you don't TRUST them blindly and completely (and bend over backwards to fulfill all their whims)? What kind of a cult is this? I'm not a sheep that needs to be herded. Besides, trust is earned. So no, it's not exhausting, it's the exact opposite. It's refreshing and freeing. Anyways, I get along with my cowor…

You've hit the nail on the head about trust needing to be earned. I didn't assume that this was on you or it was your fault. It just sounded like a bad situation. Also based on what you're saying manager also doesn't trust you or at the very least you don't share the same values.

That said it was quite a cynical interpretation of my comment and aggressive reply, so I'll leave it with that.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#127

Post by achenet »

b112 wrote: post #120
fabioborellini wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Salespe…

Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair Get nothing?! What a strange way to view a paycheque. "Hi, you're only paying me, but that's not enough to expect a solid work ethic. Instead, I'll make sure my work is just passable. Want more, and now you have to pay me mo…

that scene from Office Space where he talks about "I do just enough not to get fired" may be relevant here.

There is something to be said for 'if you're going to be a rational economic actor and you have a salaried job, the optimal strategy is finish your job's tasks as fast as possible and work on a personal project which you control the upside to with all your extra energy'.

From a purely economic point of view, spending any effort beyond the minimum at a salaried job is a waste of effort - the expected value of that extra effort is nil, unless you own significant stock. This may be why many tech companies offer equity as part of their compensation.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#128

Post by achenet »

zogrodea wrote: post #34
treve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entire comment reads as someone who has a purely adversarial relationship with their coworkers with little trust. Sounds exhausting!

It reminded me of that quote wrongly attributed to Shigeru Miyamoto (who created Mario and Zelda and other classic games). "A rushed game is bad forever, but a delayed one may eventually be good." Of course it may not apply to software today (except to the extent first impressions count) because modern software tends to be continuously maintained (and modern games often are too, to a much lesser degree, with post-rel…

the counter quote to that is John Carmack, who was originally a fan of the "it'll ship when ready philosophy", saying he 'largely recanted from that now' when discussing Rage on the Joe Rogan podcast.

Or Duke Ellington: "I don't need time. What I need is a deadline."

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#129

Post by sveme »

fabioborellini wrote: post #97
vouwfietsman wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth repeating: Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. The thing is though, that p…

> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Salespe…

If that is your experience with companies and managers, you have to choose your jobs more wisely. In good companies managers were engineers at some point as well and know what is important technically and motivationally.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#130

Post by achenet »

mirsadm wrote: post #59
Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

Most deadlines are made up anyway. If it doesn't happen usually nothing happens.

“I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.” - Douglas Adams
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