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The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

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Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#111

Post by fabioborellini »

portaouflop wrote: post #107
fabioborellini wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Salespe…

My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium, have generally much more relaxed work schedules than managers or any customer facing role. If you screw over your health working in a toxic environment that’s on you IMO - as tech worker you probably have more opportunities to improve your working conditions t…

Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others.

My first job as a developer made me work around the clock, day and night, for a below average (nationwide compared) salary. And I got yelled at.

Since I didn't have enough work experience, my applications weren't responded to. There were no ways to improve conditions without changing jobs.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#112

Post by jampekka »

vouwfietsman wrote: post #80
Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

> It's worth repeating: Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. The thing is though, that p…

Making a great product and maximizing profitability are often at odds. E.g. see all those dark patterns.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#113

Post by Culonavirus »

treve wrote: post #19
Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

This entire comment reads as someone who has a purely adversarial relationship with their coworkers with little trust. Sounds exhausting!

Sounds exhausting? Sounds like gaslighting a wee bit...

Oh nooo... the poor managers, how will they manage if you don't TRUST them blindly and completely (and bend over backwards to fulfill all their whims)? What kind of a cult is this? I'm not a sheep that needs to be herded. Besides, trust is earned.

So no, it's not exhausting, it's the exact opposite. It's refreshing and freeing.

Anyways, I get along with my coworkers very well. In fact most of my friends began as my coworkers. Then again I do not consider managers to be my coworkers. And generally speaking, yes, you could say I don't trust them. But that just comes from working in 5 for-profit companies for over 15 years. The only exception was an energy company, probably because the "just ship it" mentality wasn't as strong.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#114

Post by jampekka »

treve wrote: post #19
Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

This entire comment reads as someone who has a purely adversarial relationship with their coworkers with little trust. Sounds exhausting!

Or with the employer/owners? Owners and workers have a fundamentally adversarial relationship.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#116

Post by katrotz »

mrfumier wrote: post #104
Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

Why are you developping? Is it a hobby for passing time? For pleasure? For the beauty of the code? Could be. But most of the time, you develop in order for the software to perfom a task someone needs. And that should be your first focus: to develop something that brings value for its user, and develop it as efficiently as possible. After all, what's the point of a software if nobody uses it? So no, your job is not to…

Unfortunately there is no correct approach since both sloppy and overengineered codebases backfire. What helps me find balance is following the philosophy of 1. Make it work 2. Make it right 3. Make it fast

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#117

Post by dazhbog »

protocolture wrote: post #85

I have a loose product idea. I guess the difference between some ideas and others is in prototyping. My prototype works. The issue is that the market for the product is like maybe 600 people global. And its not just code thats required, but plastic injection moulding, hardware manufacturing etc.

How do you know it's 600? what would be the sale price? Sometimes with a little modification, a hw product can work in multiple b2b verticals ;)

Ive done a few products myself with injection molding, production pcbs, etc. and it's amazing how different customers look at it and ask for different features.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#118

Post by Culonavirus »

vouwfietsman wrote: post #80
Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

> It's worth repeating: Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. The thing is though, that p…

> absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable

Absolutely and categorically it is not. That is complete nonsense. Why should an employee care? Unless there's some profit sharing scheme in place that would benefit the said employee and they took advantage of that scheme. And even then, employees typically (and I'd even say in the vast majority of cases) have very few and tiny levers to pull to affect company profitability. So you typically you get nothing if the profit is x and nothing if the profit is x+n and even if you get some of that n you can't really affect the absolute value of n. Why should you care about n again? Oh, right, so the company doesn't go under and/or lays you off. That shit may have worked 20-30 years ago when company loyalty and upwards mobility was a thing.

> It really isn't, your job is to make a great product.

Nope, that's the product manager's job. Here, a Wikipedia link, just for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_manager

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#120

Post by b112 »

fabioborellini wrote: post #97
vouwfietsman wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth repeating: Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. The thing is though, that p…

> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Salespe…

Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair

Get nothing?! What a strange way to view a paycheque.

"Hi, you're only paying me, but that's not enough to expect a solid work ethic. Instead, I'll make sure my work is just passable. Want more, and now you have to pay me more!"

Where I come from, "extraordinary achievement" is just "doing your job".

(Are you advocating something else? I'm not suggesting free overtime, just doing the best job you can.)

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