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Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

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141–150 of 651 posts

Re: Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reliance on HD Mapping gets you to "robotaxis" quicker and easier, but it doesn't and likely cannot scale. If you can make the unit economics work for a large quantity of individual cars, mapping is a small fixed cost. I agree that it's not economical to map every city and road in the US, since you need to generate revenue from every mapped road and city. So you can think of HD maps as amounting to building roads.…

> That's simply untrue. All the hard stuff continues to be reliability and sensor gated. IR and thermal sensing are unnecessary if the bar is human level and neither is the lidar. The point is overused, but humans rely on two eyes in the driver seat. I don't see any evidence to suggest the modern model that Tesla has developed for their vision system is their limiting factor in the slightest to reach L4/L5. Dogs jump…

> I don't see any evidence to suggest the modern model that Tesla has developed for their vision system is their limiting factor in the slightest to reach L4/L5

For one, frame rate and processing rate on human eyes is way higher than cameras. Dynamic range is another. Also, Cruise and Waymo are some of the only companies that have hard internal data / ability to simulate how well their safety drivers do, and in the very same scenario what their software driver will do. Without LiDAR you can't build that simulation, and once you have that data if you continue to use HD Maps and LiDAR there's probably a good reason.

> Dogs jump into the road in front of cars all the time and get killed, and kids get endangered at school bus crossings. That's a reality of life that robotaxis do not need to solve.

Robotaxis need to avoid any accident that a human would be able to avoid.

> IR and thermal sensing are unnecessary if the bar is human level

See, you could say this if you had some data that showed that incidents per X miles (when the vehicle is driving at night) is sufficiently low, + if the software passes some contrived scenarios to gut-check its ability to see in the dark with the necessary reliability. But you don't have that data, do you? Someone has it though :) and I'd argue regulators should have it too.

Re: Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

#142
post #91

Genuine question -> - Elon (and his pro-analysts) heavily weight the future of the co's valuation on their ability to deploy a taxi network and has been promising it just around corner for years - Alphabet via Waymo seems to have "solved" robotaxis for city-proximity driving and has deployed as a business. Beyond the obvious "reality distortion field" argument is Tesla actually in a position to win here due to their…

Waymo is in a better position because:

1. Robotaxi is a better target than general self-driving because the human baseline is much lower for robotaxis (most people dislike their experience with uber, while most people think that they are a better-than-average driver)

2. Google took the high road on safety. The move-slow-and-dont-break-things DNA of Google (that hurts them in so many domains) is a golden asset in self-driving.

Re: Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have also nearly been hit as a pedestrian by a Waymo. I also last week saw a Waymo blow through a yellow-red very aggressively, so I think the downvotes on above comment are intensely biased.

The way you can tell that a mode of transport is very safe is there are tons of people online whining that they almost got killed by it.

No. It means it’s only a matter of time before this technology breaks the law and kills someone.

Re: Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

#144
post #91

Genuine question -> - Elon (and his pro-analysts) heavily weight the future of the co's valuation on their ability to deploy a taxi network and has been promising it just around corner for years - Alphabet via Waymo seems to have "solved" robotaxis for city-proximity driving and has deployed as a business. Beyond the obvious "reality distortion field" argument is Tesla actually in a position to win here due to their…

I'm typically very skeptical of Tesla's strategy here, but to play devil's advocate for a moment: Waymo has shown they can make robotaxis work, but the big catch so far is that it takes them a long time to open in a new city. They have several phases before they open fully, from what I've seen it seems to be: safety driver no passenger testing, safety drivers with employee passengers, driverless with employee passeng…

As a potential customer, Waymo's careful approach seems much more appealing to me. I don't want to ride in a move fast and break things robotaxi when it's snowing in Chicago.

Re: Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If gig work is such a good job perhaps you should consider doing it.

A lot of people depend on those job to survive. We need some type of off-ramp if we're going to just wipe out a large section of the economy . I've worked horrible jobs before, and I needed the money to survive. Not everyone can write Ruby code and make 300k a year.

> We need some type of off-ramp

Now, we're talking. Often, there will be handwringing about low-wage jobs from people who wouldn't dream of working low-wage jobs and who benefit from the existence of low-wage jobs. Often, that will be invoked as a rebuke to automation. But, automation in general isn't a threat to workers or well-being. In fact it's productivity gain which benefits well-being by lowering costs and raising living standards. If a portion of those productivity gains aren't used to help the people they displace, that's a matter of policy not of technology.

Re: Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reliance on HD Mapping gets you to "robotaxis" quicker and easier, but it doesn't and likely cannot scale. If you can make the unit economics work for a large quantity of individual cars, mapping is a small fixed cost. I agree that it's not economical to map every city and road in the US, since you need to generate revenue from every mapped road and city. So you can think of HD maps as amounting to building roads.…

> That's simply untrue. All the hard stuff continues to be reliability and sensor gated. IR and thermal sensing are unnecessary if the bar is human level and neither is the lidar. The point is overused, but humans rely on two eyes in the driver seat. I don't see any evidence to suggest the modern model that Tesla has developed for their vision system is their limiting factor in the slightest to reach L4/L5. Dogs jump…

> if the bar is human level

IMO the bar is well above human-level if you actually want to attain the level of trust necessary to remove the steering wheel from a car.

Re: Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reliance on HD Mapping gets you to "robotaxis" quicker and easier, but it doesn't and likely cannot scale. If you can make the unit economics work for a large quantity of individual cars, mapping is a small fixed cost. I agree that it's not economical to map every city and road in the US, since you need to generate revenue from every mapped road and city. So you can think of HD maps as amounting to building roads.…

> That's simply untrue. All the hard stuff continues to be reliability and sensor gated. IR and thermal sensing are unnecessary if the bar is human level and neither is the lidar. The point is overused, but humans rely on two eyes in the driver seat. I don't see any evidence to suggest the modern model that Tesla has developed for their vision system is their limiting factor in the slightest to reach L4/L5. Dogs jump…

> humans rely on two eyes in the driver seat

Eyes which are orders of magnitude capable than the best cameras, and Teslas come with mediocre cameras, not the best. Eyes which are connected to a brain, and ML is a looooong ways from rivaling that.

> That's a reality of life that robotaxis do not need to solve.

Robotaxis do not need to account for things jumping out unexpectedly in front of them?

Re: Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's simply untrue. All the hard stuff continues to be reliability and sensor gated. IR and thermal sensing are unnecessary if the bar is human level and neither is the lidar. The point is overused, but humans rely on two eyes in the driver seat. I don't see any evidence to suggest the modern model that Tesla has developed for their vision system is their limiting factor in the slightest to reach L4/L5. Dogs jump…

> if the bar is human level IMO the bar is well above human-level if you actually want to attain the level of trust necessary to remove the steering wheel from a car.

[deleted]

Re: Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

#149
post #28
post #4

Does this mean the self-driving cars are finally here? Where next?

London hopefully. Maybe one day soon I can get rid of my car.

You can’t get rid of your car in London, one of the best public transit cities in the world...?

Re: Waymo One is now open to everyone in San Francisco

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Maps seems to update at a frequency of 2-8 years. Maybe longer in some areas and we don't know what they do other than stitch it together. HD mapping, on the other hand, likely needs to be updated frequently and immediately when any construction occurs. It seems pretty clear that what they are doing today is nowhere near what they need to do. And again, I don't think that is possible.

The obvious thing to do is to just have every Waymo robotaxi or car with licensed Waymo tech report in its daily mapping/obstacle data to the mothership, so you can get new changes almost immediately. I dunno if said data would be as high quality as dedicated HD mapping cars, but it's probably at least decent, given the variety of cameras and lidars every Waymo car has.

Further, it seems to me that if you brake hard to avoid a dog, your car should warn me as I’m approaching. I’m not sure why we are trying to teach each car to drive when we could be teaching all the cars and the road to drive.
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