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The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

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Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#431

Post by gylterud »

solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

I would like to point out that there is an implicit assumption here that we actually need a ticket system for public transport.

The general concept is “the cost of the price”. Which is something to consider for public goods. If the prices would be zero, the cost of a ticket system would also be zero.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#432

Post by codewench »

Delk wrote: post #374
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

I'm not sure that necessarily explains the need for single-use NFC tickets, though. There could be a more durable serial-use or permanent card with NFC that regular commuters could buy, and if those commuters are the vast majority of rush hour passengers, it might not be such a problem if single-use tickets had a slightly slower system. Of course that'd mean having two recognition mechanisms, so the operator might op…

Taipei has single use NFC tokens that people can buy, but they are non-disposable. Instead, they are coin shaped, and are deposited in the ticket machine at the end of the trip so they can be re-used.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#433

Post by devmor »

gylterud wrote: post #431
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

I would like to point out that there is an implicit assumption here that we actually need a ticket system for public transport. The general concept is “the cost of the price”. Which is something to consider for public goods. If the prices would be zero, the cost of a ticket system would also be zero.

It's kind of silly how contentious this subject is.

The majority opinion is that we all pay for public works projects even if they don't benefit us, but for some reason, transit must be self-funded. It's odd, to say the least.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#434

Post by BiteCode_dev »

Piskvorrr wrote: post #413
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> weird printed shape up at just the right angle in good lighting conditions None of that matter. QR code can be read on any angle because of the 3 position detection patterns it comes with, by design. Lighting conditions are not a problem on tickets (which is what the article is about) because you can illuminate the paper from the camera. QRCode were fast on assembly lines two decades ago. They were invented in the…

Actually, they do matter. Assembly lines give you GREAT control over where the code is located, how it's lit ( consistently ), and what you do on read error (can't shunt off the passenger to a read error bin, so they don't hold up the line). Rotational angle doesn't matter, perspective skew does. And then - it's a leaf of paper, so you get folds and obscured parts (yes, correctable...up to a point).

Assembly lines are dirty, full of parasites and with broken lights all the time.

We can create live deep fakes or detect complex objects in live feeds of random webcams.

We certainly can correct a few shadows and distortions on a flat piece of paper we formatted, showing a basic symbol we designed and printed, pushed against a sensor we control, on a device we can light and shape the way we want.

NFC fails as well, you can fold the ticket just and it will break the antena.

Of course if it's a reusable ticket on a rigid medium, it won't happen. But neither for QRCode.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#435

Post by itsoktocry »

altacc wrote: post #346
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

>In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey.

Yes, in high trust societies, you can do things like this.

Today we have to lock deodorant and toothbrushes behind bars in our pharmacies so it's not looted. We are not the same.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#436

Post by dfadsadsf »

sysadmindotfail wrote: post #367
altacc wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

>There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance. I'll likely mangle the explanation but this sort of policy does not fair well when there is a large divide between have/have-not and little/no social safety net. If you are poverty level you will be forever stuck in this cycle: Ticket/fine, court, loss of income, etc. What might work is simply granting free access below a certain income threshold.

What many people do not realize is that one function of tickets is to prevent access to public transportation to people below a certain income threshold. If you do not, you have people using public transport as homeless shelter, urinate, smell badly, openly doing drugs, etc which leads to normal people stopping using public transport and then happily defunding it (as nobody reasonable uses it anymore - too dangerous and unpleasant).

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#437

Post by itsoktocry »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #383
joenot443 wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most North American cities sadly don’t operate at the level of trust required for a system like that to work, as much as I agree it would be better for everyone.

san francisco operates at the level of IDGAF that allows people of all income to ride buses and trams without a ticket

Yes, and they have a nearly-$1 billion budget deficit.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#438

Post by grishka »

altacc wrote: post #346
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

But there still needs to be some sort of validator that you need to use, doesn't it? I've been to two cities with a similar system where you're trusted, Helsinki and Berlin. In Helsinki there are validators that people tap some kind of multiple-trip card on. In Berlin there are very analog paper tickets that you have to put into a "Drucker" on the platform, it stamps it with the date, time, and station name.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#439

Post by wiz21c »

FTA:

> It's remarkable that these NFC chips can be manufactured so cheaply that they are disposable

In our times, where we slowly understand that we have problems of resources and waste, I find it very disturbing that "disposable" is considered a positive achievement by the author.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#440

Post by localfirst »

osnium123 wrote: post #66
localfirst wrote: post #13

Comparing Montreal subway with Vancouver's skytrain: - Montreals subway stations have this gritty, distinctively french atmosphere i loved it. - Vancouvers above/below stations have no soul, distinctively anglo but above ground ones i liked. - Montreal train cars use rubber wheels to my shock! Extremely loud. - Vancouver train cars use some sort of electric system which im not familiar with ( have a few variants (new…

In addition to how hosting the Olympics hurt Montreal financially, there was substantial tax revenue loss from the trend of corporate headquarters moving from Montreal to Toronto staring in the 1960s due to Francophone policies.

Yeah they seem to do this every recession. I don't see any value in forcing French language which btw, people from France laugh and make fun of Quebecois. I've seen it at work too.
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