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The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

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Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#401

Post by BiteCode_dev »

fennecfoxy wrote: post #362
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see big technical limitations resulting in slow QRCode scanning. We manage to detect fast cars going 120mph to fine them, we can read fingerprints instantly through a screen. We can take pictures of galaxies light years away. 30 years ago you could kill ducks with the NES guns instantly and it worked by detecting pixels. I'm sure we can figure out how to analyze black squares and turn them into a number under…

Touch x against y versus line this weird printed shape up at just the right angle in good lighting conditions. I feel like NFC is much easier to tell older folks how to use as well. I'm all for the "we have technology why tf don't we use it, why aren't we better at it" argument, but the truth is that a lot of tech/systems in transport & other areas are retro af and new stuff gets shoe-horned in with all the caveats o…

> weird printed shape up at just the right angle in good lighting conditions

None of that matter. QR code can be read on any angle because of the 3 position detection patterns it comes with, by design.

Lighting conditions are not a problem on tickets (which is what the article is about) because you can illuminate the paper from the camera.

QRCode were fast on assembly lines two decades ago. They were invented in the nineties, at a time where we had slow processors and shitty cameras.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#402

Post by BiteCode_dev »

delfinom wrote: post #372
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see big technical limitations resulting in slow QRCode scanning. We manage to detect fast cars going 120mph to fine them, we can read fingerprints instantly through a screen. We can take pictures of galaxies light years away. 30 years ago you could kill ducks with the NES guns instantly and it worked by detecting pixels. I'm sure we can figure out how to analyze black squares and turn them into a number under…

Lol, that's the joke. QR Codes were invented by Denso (automaker own) / Toyota. For high speed assembly line processes. Lul.

In 1994, no less.

I don't think people realize how limited the hardware was at the time.

They think because their phone is slow at scanning QR codes, that's how it must be. But the phone is not a dedicated device for QRCode scanning.

It's like someone saying they get blurry pics of cars on the highway so clearly speed limits are not possible to check automatically.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#403

Post by ikety »

bluGill wrote: post #389
joenot443 wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most North American cities sadly don’t operate at the level of trust required for a system like that to work, as much as I agree it would be better for everyone.

Many cities in North America do. The key is the fine for not having a ticket is high enough that you are on average much better off having a ticket. Generally this works out to enough random inspections that the average person is checked once a month, and the fine for not having a ticket works out to the cost of a 3 month pass. The exact numbers are of course subject to debate, but the above should give any city a go…

Now you have to collect those fines. Good luck with that. Only true frictionless solution is fully state funded.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#404

Post by Piskvorrr »

solarized wrote: post #361
altacc wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

Interesting! It's a good way to test how successful the city is with their education systems. We could try it out one day a year at least. Differentiate nomal daily sales rates within the test day, observe the trend year by year. Sounds naive, would be lovely if it works.

There was a push for a gated system here, some years ago. The vendor tried to sell it on massive cost savings...and was publicly humiliated by a bunch of geeks with an Excel table. Turns out, installing and running the gates would, at best, bring parity with random ticket inspections+fines - while impeding passenger flow as a bonus.

It's not necessarily a matter of education: just the feeling of "not worth freeloading (at the price), I'm likely to get caught anyway" is sufficient.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#405

Post by bluGill »

II2II wrote: post #143
markus_zhang wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found the same thing with my wife. I'm a technical person, but I'm extremely bad with tools and such, including the ticket thing. If no one shows me how to use it I'll probably figure out a way to insert it somewhere. My wife won't have any problem with this and other small tools. The same thing with IKEA: I always rely on the manual and just blindly follow the instructions, and gets very frustrated if the ins…

> The same thing with IKEA: I always rely on the manual and just blindly follow the instructions, and gets very frustrated if the instructions miss one step. Following instructions is a good thing. Plenty of people damage stuff when putting it together since it looks obvious, but they usually miss critical details. I would imagine that the people who designed the card scanners had to put a lot of thought into their d…

For things like IKEA furniture there often is a good engineering reason to do things in a specific order that is not obvious. For furniture this is okay - nobody does it often (or if you do it is a few things that you memorize the instructions for).

Transit has different considerations though. It is critical that doing the right thing is obvious without reading instructions. Someone might have an important meeting to make and the time to read the instructions (or wait for the person in from of them to read the instructions) means they are late. Or (worse?!?) that time spent in line is annoying enough that someone decides to buy a car. You can somewhat get around this with more fare machines - but they are expensive and take up a lot of space. Fortunately we have human-machine interaction specialists who can tell you how to make a fare machine that is easy to use correctly without needing any instructions.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#406

Post by bluGill »

oopsallmagic wrote: post #194
ghaff wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting better but, in my experience, once metro systems got away from manned booths and tokens, the systems worked fine for commuters but led to lots of fumbling and long lines for tourists. Trains in the UK still have a certain amount of "Which of these tickets/receipts go where?" while a line of irritated locals is building up behind you. Fortunately, also being the UK, someone will help you if you're struggl…

Is that the fault of the system, or the fault of the tourists for visiting a new place and not reading up on local customs?

I'm into transit and so I did my best to understand the system last time I went someplace - and it still took me a few minutes to figure out what I needed to do last time I went to a new city. And the tourists who didn't think to look this up in front of me took even longer. Nothing was hard, but when you don't know exactly what you need it takes some time to figure that out.

The above assumes you know you will be there and so can look things up. I wasn't planning to leave the airport in one city so I didn't look up what locals do - then weather made me miss the connection and I was stuck in a city for a day.

Locals going to a new part of their own city often have the same problems trying to read the map and time tables. They are faster than tourists, but still need extra time because they don't know what is going on.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#407

Post by gpm »

pluc wrote: post #364
elric wrote: post #333

Free public transport would make all of this stuff unnecessary.

There is no such thing as free public transport.

There is. The same way as "non-toll roads", "fire departments", "public schools", and so on.

If you want a concrete american privately run and open to the public example, see Stanford's buses in Palo Alto...

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#408

Post by bluGill »

justusthane wrote: post #134
hammock wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m surprised you have a subway at all

We don’t, we have a bus line.

For small cities a bus is better than a subway. There is no traffic so a bus moves fast enough, and roads don't cost that much. You need those roads anyway for trucks, so may as well reuse them. When a city grows close to a million they should start installing metros - but cities have plenty of warning and so should start reserving space for the metro at 500k.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#409

Post by cryptonym »

jasonkester wrote: post #392
dghughes wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was watching a travel show about France and in Paris it seems tourists can get confused as to where their ticket is for. They can easily end up on a train in an area their ticket isn't for. You get a 100 Euro fine! And that's an honest mistake not trying to get away without buying a ticket.

Yeah, that kinda sucks. Last year I bought a friend a ticket from Avon (just south of Paris) to Charles de Gaulle. I rode along and we stopped for lunch in Paris. He carried on to the airport, met mr. Ticket man, and got a €100 fine for taking the route printed on his ticket, but too slowly. I can’t understand what they’re trying to incentivise by doing this to tourists.

Transport company gets some money and ticket man gets a share. There is no incentive for them to be human.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#410

Post by rtpg »

reitanuki wrote: post #290
rtpg wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder how they block the card, my impression was that tokenization was meant to make it harder for card chargers to be able to track a card through multiple taps like that.

They must have the card identity because you have to explicitly 'tap out' at the other end, if you don't want to be billed with a maximum fare. Don't ask me how though

I love this reasoning! Absolutely succinct
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