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The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

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Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#361

Post by solarized »

altacc wrote: post #346
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

Interesting! It's a good way to test how successful the city is with their education systems. We could try it out one day a year at least.

Differentiate nomal daily sales rates within the test day, observe the trend year by year. Sounds naive, would be lovely if it works.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#362

Post by fennecfoxy »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #342
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

I can't see big technical limitations resulting in slow QRCode scanning. We manage to detect fast cars going 120mph to fine them, we can read fingerprints instantly through a screen. We can take pictures of galaxies light years away. 30 years ago you could kill ducks with the NES guns instantly and it worked by detecting pixels. I'm sure we can figure out how to analyze black squares and turn them into a number under…

Touch x against y versus line this weird printed shape up at just the right angle in good lighting conditions. I feel like NFC is much easier to tell older folks how to use as well.

I'm all for the "we have technology why tf don't we use it, why aren't we better at it" argument, but the truth is that a lot of tech/systems in transport & other areas are retro af and new stuff gets shoe-horned in with all the caveats of a shoe-horning in.

Stuff doesn't get upgraded often, because it's expensive, because all of us vote for politicians that grant expensive/overpriced gov contracts putting money into them and their mates' back pockets. We'd be able to refresh public use tech all the time if it was non or low profit, never gonna happen tho.

Look at how much it cost Wales to change 30mph signs to 20mph: 34m£! And that's just for a few small areas, not everywhere they wanted to do. How in the f u c k, do you spend 34m taking down and putting up some signs? Those are ludicrous prices & all of us just completely ignore it bc we're too busy arguing about skin colour, which sex the person I sleep with is, or trans people being in the bathroom they want to be in, etc. Honestly.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#363

Post by account42 »

grishka wrote: post #292
caf wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about how the unique ID is programmed into each chip. Presumably all the chips on the wafer come out identical - at which point in the process are they individually selected and given a unique personality? Is it done with direct electrical contact that is then fused off, or using the near field link?

Maybe some kind of custom NFC command that writes the UID into the EEPROM and sets a flag that it's now read only?

It's probably done through normal write commands if there is any explicit lock bit at all (it could doesn't just check if any of the UID bits are already non-zero and then reject the write). You can actually make other parts of the memory read-only too by setting bits at a specified address [0] (which then cannot be unset again).

[0] https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/MF0ICU1.pdf#G4008599

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#365

Post by joenot443 »

altacc wrote: post #346
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

Most North American cities sadly don’t operate at the level of trust required for a system like that to work, as much as I agree it would be better for everyone.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#366

Post by hgomersall »

The_Colonel wrote: post #329
stavros wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A centralized system is how tags work already, so you can't toss your ticket to your friend behind you and have them reuse it.

These NFC chips have counters to deactivate themselves after the allocated number of trips has been reached.

40 years ago we had a read-write system based on mechanical trimming of a piece of card and a physical time stamp[1]. It's absolutely possible to roll out a system to keep track of journeys that doesn't require fancy embedded ICs.

[1] https://www.facebook.com/uktvads/videos/kerching-a-saverstri...

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#367

Post by sysadmindotfail »

altacc wrote: post #346
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

>There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

I'll likely mangle the explanation but this sort of policy does not fair well when there is a large divide between have/have-not and little/no social safety net.

If you are poverty level you will be forever stuck in this cycle: Ticket/fine, court, loss of income, etc. What might work is simply granting free access below a certain income threshold.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#368

Post by dghughes »

altacc wrote: post #346
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

I was watching a travel show about France and in Paris it seems tourists can get confused as to where their ticket is for. They can easily end up on a train in an area their ticket isn't for. You get a 100 Euro fine! And that's an honest mistake not trying to get away without buying a ticket.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#369

Post by skeeter2020 »

altacc wrote: post #346
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

Calgary's light rail is like this, at least to-date. I don't know if fare compliance is an issue, but security and homelessness is and that may add physical fare-only barriers in the near future

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#370

Post by skeeter2020 »

dghughes wrote: post #368
altacc wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

I was watching a travel show about France and in Paris it seems tourists can get confused as to where their ticket is for. They can easily end up on a train in an area their ticket isn't for. You get a 100 Euro fine! And that's an honest mistake not trying to get away without buying a ticket.

100 Euros for a travel story you'll tell years into the future, and funding the tourism economy - win-win!
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