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The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

righto.com

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Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Makes me get out of bed and tap my phone on a specific NFC tag placed somewhere around the house, in order to turn off the alarm. Neat, but is there an advantage between this and "Place the alarm clock further from the bed"?

The noise maker (alarm) is still close to him.

Fair. My mother used to put one of those old rattling alarm clocks with two bells on top into a metallic dish and placed that combo at the other end of the room. Similar concept.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#82

Comparing Montreal subway with Vancouver's skytrain: - Montreals subway stations have this gritty, distinctively french atmosphere i loved it. - Vancouvers above/below stations have no soul, distinctively anglo but above ground ones i liked. - Montreal train cars use rubber wheels to my shock! Extremely loud. - Vancouver train cars use some sort of electric system which im not familiar with ( have a few variants (new…

When I visited Montreal I mostly walked and used their rental bicycle. I did take a few subway rides and being from Vancouver it didn't leave any specific impression on me one way or the other - I got where I needed to get to (some suburb).

The Skytrain to YVR is indeed very nice - built for the winter Olympics. Maybe not as "connected" as some European airports but quite convenient.

The problem with transit in Vancouver is that most of it is rays emanating from downtown, i.e. you have fairly decent (though IMO worse than most large European cities) transit if you need to get downtown but it's terrible useless if you need to get across. My work used to be 20 minutes drive time, >2 hours transit time.

Skytrain doesn't exactly cover the entire region, as you get further away from the downtown core the coverage gets much spottier until when you get far enough (but still part of metro Vancouver) it's non-existent.

There are certainly times when buses don't show up on time. I take transit these days to work and back and I would say something like 30% of the time the bus isn't on time. About 5% of the time the bus I'm supposed to take just never shows up.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#83
post #73

The NFC chip I want still doesn't exist: a CPU and flash I can write a program for, directly, no VMs, no Java, without an NDA'd datasheet. These exist, but they're all behind NDAs and you're not allowed to have them. They're used for e.g. EMV.

How about something like this:

https://hackaday.com/2009/06/27/avr-rfid-tag/

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#84
post #76

> The Ultralight chip has a few features beyond a printed ticket, though. The chips are manufactured with a unique 7-byte identification code (UID). Moreover, the UID is signed, ensuring that fake UIDs cannot be generated. The problem is, they can be just as easily cloned . Your average Flipper Zero can do that. If you want actual security, you have to go for a challenge-response scheme - i.e. every card is provision…

It's utterly not worth it. Your time to get it working, the equipment... but even if you have all of those if you get caught they will throw the book on you to scare away others. You can be charged by Unauthorized use of computer, Fraud and who knows what else. All of that to save four dollars on a ticket? When every station has cameras?

The thing is, you have to do it only once, and then the clones and knockoffs come.

Like what, there's Tiktoks advising young dumbasses precisely what they need to steal and joyride cars.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#85

My favorite household NFC usage? NFC alarm clock. Makes me get out of bed and tap my phone on a specific NFC tag placed somewhere around the house, in order to turn off the alarm. Then, I may as well wake up, since I'm already out of bed : ) It's a nice companion to help perform 'habit stacking' as Atomic Habits calls it. Want to do pushups right after waking up? Place an NFC card under your workout mat, so you're fo…

I have one set up with guest WiFi credentials, and somehow it's still a novelty to my friends when they visit for the first time!

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#86

My favorite household NFC usage? NFC alarm clock. Makes me get out of bed and tap my phone on a specific NFC tag placed somewhere around the house, in order to turn off the alarm. Then, I may as well wake up, since I'm already out of bed : ) It's a nice companion to help perform 'habit stacking' as Atomic Habits calls it. Want to do pushups right after waking up? Place an NFC card under your workout mat, so you're fo…

[deleted]

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#87

> The Ultralight chip has a few features beyond a printed ticket, though. The chips are manufactured with a unique 7-byte identification code (UID). Moreover, the UID is signed, ensuring that fake UIDs cannot be generated. The problem is, they can be just as easily cloned . Your average Flipper Zero can do that. If you want actual security, you have to go for a challenge-response scheme - i.e. every card is provision…

> If you want actual security, you have to go for a challenge-response scheme

Another option is to just store used UIDs in a database. In fact, you could do a system with only UIDs. For a single use ticket, validate the UID signature and mark it as spent the first time it is used, then every use after that will be denied.

A card can be cloned, and it will work, once, it means one could steal a ticket by walking by and using appropriate equipment (not just a Flipper Zero as it is too short ranged) and use it before the legitimate owner does. I don't think it is something to worry about for a single use subway ticket.

To improve security for multi-use tickets, one could use rolling codes: every time a ticket is scanned and its UID validated, some code is read from the NFC memory and it has to match a sequence, the next code is then written back to memory and has to be provided next time, invalidating any clone. Tickets can still be stolen, but you can't beat the system unless you crack the server-side encryption.

More valuable tickets like commuter passes can use a different system with a challenge-response scheme.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#88
post #44
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you live? Chicago has had these contactless paper tickets since 2013

Atlanta has been using a form of these contactless paper tickets since 2006.

Romans have used tickets before AD, guy at the gate checked it without any contact

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#89
post #72
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the password authentication helps against cloning. You could start a transaction and stop after you get the password. Then you could clone the card. (The system could invalidate the ticket as soon as they get the UID, but that would be a reliability nightmare since a failure during the read would invalidate someone's ticket.)

You could do that, but it still greatly raises the cost for an attacker, since they need to hang around a ticket validator for every ticket they want to clone, as opposed to e.g. a QR code ticket, which can be trivially copied by a simple screenshot. Also, many of these transit systems are eventually consistent (they're usually offline-capable for resilience, but usually manage to send all validation transactions to…

You have to hang out to get the id of a simple 125khz tag too - this is what cloning means

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#90
post #78

How is a chip like this actually manufactured? Especially the analogue components area.

It's manufactured pretty much the same as any other chip, using photolithography. Most of the analog components would be CMOS transistors, just larger. They might use a BiCMOS process with a few extra steps to make bipolar transistors. And there might be an extra step for the capacitors. But overall, the chip uses an old, simple manufacturing process, much easier than cutting-edge processors.
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