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DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

dronedj.com

661–670 of 742 posts

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why BS? The US government can jail me; the Chinese government cannot. I therefore fear surveillance by the US government more than I fear surveillance by the Chinese government. Now, in an ideal world, I want neither China nor the US monitoring me, nor anyone else. But for me personally, the downside from the US monitoring me is larger. That line of reasoning seems sound to me. If you see a flaw in it, state what the…

It skips important details such as courts, juries, and due process. It's a cynical view that the US legal system must work the same way as in authoritarian Communist China. It sounds like a view that someone living in such a system would have. That your system is equally bad but at least ours is across an ocean. Is it a false equivalence?

No, it's not false equivalence. You seem to be completely missing the point.

Let's say that there's a major terrorist attack that uses a freight train as a bomb. Let's say that it took very careful, long term observation of trains in order to gather the information that made the attack possible. Let's say that in response, Congress passes legislation that makes it illegal to loiter in a location where you can watch railroad traffic. But my hobby is watching trains, and I think "surely that can't be constitutional", so I keep doing it. Homeland Security looks at my location data from my phone and has me arrested. I go to court and the jury finds me guilty because that's the law and watching trains is a really weird hobby that none of them identify with. In a decade the Supreme Court rules that the law is unconstitutional, and I go free. Due process worked (eventually), but it still ruined a decade of my life.

Now let's say that instead, Chairman Xi gets paranoid and decides that it's dangerous to allow people to watch trains. He issues a decree to that effect. Also, he (or his intelligence services) can get access to my location data, and can see that I'm hanging out by railroad lines watching trains. And there's not a thing he can do about it - not without conquering the United States first.

So, no, it's not false equivalence. I absolutely value due process and jury trials. I'm glad I live in the US and not in China. But I also am aware that even in the US, law enforcement at times oversteps their authority and the rules. We have layers of protections, and those layers of protections usually work in the end (there are those who would accuse me of being blindly optimistic here).

But for all China's problems, and lack of democracy, and lack of due process, and all that, they can't jail me. The US is my problem; China isn't. (And keeping the protections the US offers is my problem - or my responsibility, if you prefer. Keeping protections against unreasonable search and seizure is part of that.)

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It skips important details such as courts, juries, and due process. It's a cynical view that the US legal system must work the same way as in authoritarian Communist China. It sounds like a view that someone living in such a system would have. That your system is equally bad but at least ours is across an ocean. Is it a false equivalence?

No, it's not false equivalence. You seem to be completely missing the point. Let's say that there's a major terrorist attack that uses a freight train as a bomb. Let's say that it took very careful, long term observation of trains in order to gather the information that made the attack possible. Let's say that in response, Congress passes legislation that makes it illegal to loiter in a location where you can watch r…

I appreciate the explanation. The argument that China can't throw you in jail is technically correct but ignores all of the things that they can do to you. They won't throw you in jail they only seek to erode and nullify the West.

I'm not worried about jail as much as I'm worried about surveillance of my friends and family for profile building, blackmail, staging cyber attacks on power grids and water treatment, and harassing journalists to name a few. They can and are currently doing those things on a massive scale.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#663
post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just an excuse, after 10 years failing to compete. Western drone companies have received billions in investments to make competing drones, but repeatedly fail, for some reason. Western company can't compete, but that's on them. Banning DJI won't change anything, Western companies have to get their act together.

This isn't really true. Western drone companies haven't bothered competing in the consumer space, but they have made lots of advancement in the non-consumer space, where, arguably, the profits are better. Why try to compete with DJI for mail order drones going to kids when you can get a multi-million dollar contract with the Pentagon?

> Western drone companies haven't bothered competing in the consumer space

This is factually wrong. Most drone companies have tried in the consumer space before pivoting towards the military. The military has been more and more present since around 2019, and most Western drone companies have pivoted to the military since Ukraine. Not because it's more profitable, but really because they failed in the consumer space.

Also the military makes it easier for Western companies because DJI cannot compete (obviously). But I am absolutely convinced that DJI is better at making military drones ("micro aerial vehicles") than the West.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That didn't use to be true. There was once several Western consumer drone companies (3D Robotics, Parrot, GoPro, Intel, etc.) as recently as the mid-2010s. They gave up on the consumer space because DJI just totally ate their lunch, releasing better, cheaper drones year after year. I still remember how in any given year, the annual DJI drone releases would be smaller, cheaper, better, and fly longer than the other co…

They competed until they were undercut, and then just didn't bother pursuing more profitable business instead. That is to say, if you can make a drone for $200, and DJI puts one out for $50, you don't really stand chance, so get out of the way and find more profitable businesses. Anyways, DJI seems to just publish its revenue ($3.83b in 2021) but is it actually making money (profit, not revenue)? I'm not finding anyt…

> That is to say, if you can make a drone for $200, and DJI puts one out for $50, you don't really stand chance

The situation was more that western companies could make a drone for $1000, and DJI would make a significantly better drone for $500. Were they both $1000, the DJI drone would still clearly be better.

I am not praising DJI for free here. I just think that we need to face the truth. There is no way to improve with denial.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#665
post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the above attitude is why the US is a joke with people who can't afford education, healthcare, or a home, 70+ yo still working their ass off in McJobs, crumbling public infrastructure, homeless and billionaires laughing all the way to the bank... Then you're comparing countries with better distributed quality of life based on GDP or the presence of billionaires and unicorns, as if between you, Zuck, and Musk you…

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe... US ranks 3 by mean but 15 by median. It's ahead of most European by mean but by median most West European are ahead. And this doesn't adjust for property prices.

>US ranks 3 by mean but 15 by median. It's ahead of most European by mean but by median most West European are ahead.

Yep! And the European countries behind include like ex-soviet bloc countries and such (basically starting from very low in 1989-1991). And as you not, the cost differences (not accounted in the table) push European countries even further than this ranking.

Besides mean vs median, I'd point also quality of life factors not measured in dollars or euros.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can only be side-loaded on Android, because their app breaks a number of policies on privacy and data gathering. I don't think this is the reason, I think it's more that they're just too lazy to jump through the approval and maintenance hoops that come with an app store, especially because their home market (China) doesn't even use the Play Store. The iOS version of their app is Apple-approved and present in the…

What I heard (third hand knowledge) is that the DJI Android software stack can't handle AABs and for some reason it's easier for them to just get people to sideload instead of fixing their toolchain.

At least on some Android based dji products, the device os does not include Google services. If aabs are dependent on Google Play being installed, then this would be correct. Side loading is absolutely viable for apks, as are third party app stores. I am not an android developer.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#667
post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the above attitude is why the US is a joke with people who can't afford education, healthcare, or a home, 70+ yo still working their ass off in McJobs, crumbling public infrastructure, homeless and billionaires laughing all the way to the bank... Then you're comparing countries with better distributed quality of life based on GDP or the presence of billionaires and unicorns, as if between you, Zuck, and Musk you…

> And the above attitude is why the US is a joke with people who can't afford education, healthcare, or a home The median American has all of these things better than the median European, except maybe healthcare. That's tough to compare. Some countries like the UK clearly have worse healthcare than the US. Most of the top colleges are American. American homes tend to be much larger and nice than European homes. > The…

>The median American has all of these things better than the median European, except maybe healthcare.

How about the median Western European (including nordic)?

>Most of the top colleges are American.

Yes, because that's where the money and companies are. Those concern a miniscule minority of the population - with most either not having access to education, or only through huge personal debt. And even there, take away the majority Europeans, Asians, Indians, etc doing the research in these (after having been educated in their local countries), and it would be a wasteland.

>Some countries like the UK clearly have worse healthcare than the US

The UK had better healthcare than the US for the average person, it only fell behind because of opening itself up too much because of immigration (without sufficient funding increases) and also because of following US-like neoliberal policies in the past 20 years or so that hurt the NHS.

>Whether you compare median or mean, Americans reliably come out ahead, except for a few small Euro countries (mostly tax havens for American companies).

Not exactly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_pe...

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#668
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the control apps tap into GPS so they know when you're in a restricted zone, the gov't could simply make them mark all of the US as a restricted zone and the drone will never fly. I have one, I'm not happy about this.

This would have to come from the firmware in the drone looking up what the no-fly zones were. GPS is transmit-only location, it can't write no-fly zone data to a particular drone. The drone would look it up through a connected cell phone using a web service like this: https://tfr.faa.gov/tfr_map_ims/html/ I think (hope) it would be a hard sell to send different data from faa.gov to DJI drone lookups versus other bran…

> This would have to come from the firmware in the drone looking up what the no-fly zones were.

Nope, it happens in the control app on your device.

> GPS is transmit-only location, it can't write no-fly zone data to a particular drone.

No one said it could.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#669
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is far from noble, just different mentality and expectations from life. VW keep saying that next year VW Golf robotaxis are coming and not delivering wouldn't fly, therefore we don't have crazy stock prices. Airbus keeps making good quality planes that don't fall from the skies, selling those then flying around. It's alright, I don't know why the government should attack Airbus but maybe the US government shou…

Sure but that wasn't the main thrust of what I was replying to. Also, I guess it only has its own Wireguards or (if we want to talk about inflated promises instead of outright fraud) hundreds of start up like Qwant that promised to challenge the big American man in (2) more weeks or just a few more subsidies. The only difference is that we hear a lot more about American success and failures as they are sadly utterly…

Late correction: I meant wirecard, not wireguard!

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#670
post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of your point but. > data going to the NSA or something, but in the extremely limited cases where it does protections exist with oversight. They didn't build the Utah Data Center because of their extremely limited amount of data. We all like to joke about our data going to the NSA because our data has been repeatedly been caught going to the NSA.

> They didn't build the Utah Data Center because of their extremely limited amount of data. I love that people point to one of the smallest NSA data centers as if its going to prove some sort of point. Regardless, this is exactly the kind of whataboutism that I am talking about. Every government collects all the data it can. The difference is that the NSA targets foreign governments and terror organizations. The Chin…

>The difference is that the NSA targets foreign governments and terror organizations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOVEINT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_global_surveillance_discl...

Sorry, but you seem a little naive. I recommend reading up on the US domestic surveillance program that the government was caught red handed engaging in.

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