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EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#171

Post by 22c »

squigz wrote: post #155
22c wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are truly interested, start with the basics and start with what has happened in your own country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_expression_in_Canad... You do not seem truly interested though. My guess is that you do not feel that your particular speech/expressions are under threat.

I'm very interested in exploring the claim I initially asked about. I'm very familiar with freedom of expression in my country, and in various other countries. I remain unconvinced that "it's often viewed as a threat" - we're just generally not absolutists about it, because we recognize there's nuance even to that. Your America-centric view of the world is pretty fun though.

You're in a discussion with two different users. I haven't specifically expressed anything about my view of the world.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#172

Post by technion »

squigz wrote: post #71
Wytwwww wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We learnt the value of free speech the hard way, and very slowly Did we though? Unfortunately outside the US and a handful of other places free speech doesn't seem to be valued that much, often it's even viewed as a threat (and I'm not talking about authoritarian regimes). It's a double-edged sword to be fair, enabling misinformation and chaos.

> Unfortunately outside the US and a handful of other places free speech doesn't seem to be valued that much, often it's even viewed as a threat Can you convince me of this? Because it's not my impression.

Coming from Australia, everything about Westboro baptist style freedom of speech is something I'm pretty happy to not have.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#173

Post by slg »

kragen wrote: post #162
slg wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Free speech absolutists like myself I think one of the main problems "free speech absolutist" have is that they chose such an awkward phrase to self-identify themselves. The word "absolutist" is so unambiguous that it implies that seemingly no one would qualify for it besides true loons which makes the whole idea easy to dismiss. When you really get down to it, almost everyone supports some type of restriction on sp…

see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40712506 for my argument that making child porn illegal protects abusers more than abuse victims. i guess that makes me a free speech absolutist?

I think it is fundamentally dishonest to point to a Pulitzer Prize winning photograph as any sort of representative example of "child porn". Neither of the photos you specifically call out would meet the "I know it when I see it" standard cited by the US Supreme Court and the photos that do would never be published by reputable news sources regardless of their actual legal status. Therefore, your argument isn't even really about the law, it is about societal standards of decency.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#174

Post by renewiltord »

School-Cotton wrote: post #135
chgs wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The largest organisations are the trillion dollar ones we interact with every day, not the eu or even the German or us governments .

The German government can put you in prison. The US government can do that, and additionally can even kill you.

And the French can bomb your ship, even if they're not competent enough to hide that they're the ones who did it.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#175

Post by squigz »

22c wrote: post #171
squigz wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm very interested in exploring the claim I initially asked about. I'm very familiar with freedom of expression in my country, and in various other countries. I remain unconvinced that "it's often viewed as a threat" - we're just generally not absolutists about it, because we recognize there's nuance even to that. Your America-centric view of the world is pretty fun though.

You're in a discussion with two different users. I haven't specifically expressed anything about my view of the world.

Quite right; apologies.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#176

Post by Dig1t »

consumer451 wrote: post #110
Dig1t wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP specified “culturally”, ie people who stand up for free speech regardless of its content are painted as alt-right bigots, even if they only care about preserving the right to speak freely. I’m also in this camp and have been down-voted into oblivion many times for just saying something like “I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it”. It’s not fun to be a defender of truly fr…

I don't believe that anyone is truly for absolute free speech, it's just some theoretical utopia which sounds great, until you actually dive into details. Would you defend my right to call your little brother or sister terrible disgusting names? Threaten you or your family's lives? Say that your entire ethnicity doesn't deserve to exist? Because that would be absolute free speech. I don't think anybody should have th…

I know I sound like a horrible evil person, but yes I truly would like to live in a world where you can say any of those examples. As another commenter said, 2/3 of those are already legal to say anyway, and I am so glad that I live in a place that has that freedom.

I don’t agree with or like any of the things you say but I would rather live in a world where you can say them instead of being arrested.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#177

Post by pas »

dankai wrote: post #167

The current draft would cover every kind of service that allows people to exchange information so that every DM you send on reddit, twitter, discord, steam, ... would be have to be scanned. Not even the most totalitarian governments on this planet have tried to implement something like this. Also it sounds extremely illusory that the people exchanging CSAM wouldn't simply switch to private services knowing their mess…

page 46. "... measures shall be ... targeted and proportionate in relation to that risk, taking into account, in particular, the seriousness of the risk as well as the provider’s financial and technological capabilities and the number of users; ..."

.

.

It's a big framework to push the industry to have more "parental controls".

Everything is covered, but there the actual requirements make sense. See page 45.

It's still bad, because it's extremely tone-deaf (and playing with fire is bad), but it's written by and for policy idiots, who live in Word documents, and (un)fortunately rarely have contact with the outside world.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#178

Post by pas »

worldsayshi wrote: post #93
gpvos wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would my device be (self-)reporting?

All legal apps have to be self reporting I guess... So whenever you send anything to example.com you also send it to government-snooping-service.org?domain=example.com. And if you refuse to adjust your app you will get fined I guess. Will curl have to self report every request? Lol... Every client? Like will axios need to self report?

Providers, not individual apps.

For actual details in the draft see

page 45 and 46 ... https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2024/05/2024-05-28_Cou...

...

"... measures shall be ... targeted and proportionate in relation to that risk, taking into account, in particular, the seriousness of the risk as well as the provider’s financial and technological capabilities and the number of users; ..."

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#179

Post by ls612 »

pavon wrote: post #168
ls612 wrote: post #117

It will be very interesting to see the responses of WhatsApp and Apple if this moves forward. Do their commitments to E2EE mean anything or not. Will iMessage and WhatsApp leave the EU or not. That would be extremely telling as to the actual quality of the security guarantees they purport to provide.

Apple is easy - they had already implemented this voluntarily until they got pushback, and decided against rolling it out.

They decisively said “this was a bad idea” and disavowed the effort.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#180

Post by nielsole »

marcinzm wrote: post #158
anigbrowl wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU was established to provide mutual economic and military security in Europe on a federal model following WW2, and it's done very well in that aim. Of course it's not perfect, but shallow takes like the one above provide nothing of value.

> military security Wasn't that NATO (aka mostly the US)?

Treaty on European union 42.7

If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States.

Commitments and cooperation in this area shall be consistent with commitments under the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which, for those States which are members of it, remains the foundation of their collective defence and the forum for its implementation.

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