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EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

patrick-breyer.de

151–160 of 360 posts

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#151
post #147
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Unfortunately outside the US and a handful of other places free speech doesn't seem to be valued that much, often it's even viewed as a threat >Can you convince me of this? Because it's not my impression. In my country (Macedonia), our then-Prime Minister a few years ago during the height of the pandemic, spoke (broken) English and funnily pronounced vaccines, something like "vac-signs" (or "vaksajns" in Macedonia…

Mmm, yes. America is the only country that has true freedom of speech. I suppose that's why a silly Canadian like me wouldn't know much about other countries. We just don't have free speech.

If you are truly interested, start with the basics and start with what has happened in your own country:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_expression_in_Canad...

You do not seem truly interested though. My guess is that you do not feel that your particular speech/expressions are under threat.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#152
post #4

This is why the roles of the major players in society (government, monopolies) need to be circumscribed. Large organizations will always try to grow in size and power. We need some sort of human right for digital privacy to make this sort of thing illegal.

Free speech absolutists like myself got run over culturally with hate speech laws so for anyone continuing on the fight I wish you the best of luck.

>Free speech absolutists like myself

I think one of the main problems "free speech absolutist" have is that they chose such an awkward phrase to self-identify themselves. The word "absolutist" is so unambiguous that it implies that seemingly no one would qualify for it besides true loons which makes the whole idea easy to dismiss.

When you really get down to it, almost everyone supports some type of restriction on speech. This should be especially apparent when discussing legislation like this in which the goal is preventing the distribution of child porn. How can a "free speech absolutist" be okay with a government making certain images and videos illegal to share? Wouldn't a true absolutist fight for people's right to distribute child porn?

The ambiguity of "absolutist" ends up making any reasonable "free speech absolutist" debate the meaning of the word "speech". Suddenly things like child porn, defamation, threats, fraud, and/or the location of Elon Musk's private plane need to be debated as whether they qualify as "speech". The chosen phrase necessitates that the "absolutist" need to weaken the idea of "free speech" in order to seem reasonable. Which in turn makes people who are ostensibly pro-free speech start to question whether something like hate speech should even qualify for free speech protections.

So a "free speech absolutist" either needs to argue some truly extreme views like why child porn should be legal or they weaken the overall pro-free speech side of the whole debate.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech absolutists like myself got run over culturally with hate speech laws so for anyone continuing on the fight I wish you the best of luck.

Honest question: why would a free speech absolutist start a discussion here, on this site? I have a feeling that plenty of rules here [0] wouldn't be accepted by such a crowd. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[deleted]

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#154
I can see how that would be implemented for WhatsApp and other apps from large companies. But how would that work in practice for applications like Matrix where clients are not controlled by the server operator nor the server developer?

Some questions I have from reading Patrick's website:

- How do you even ensure a client is actually self-reporting? On-device attestation doesn't really work.

- As a provider of E2EE chats, should the client report to you or to a third-party (Who?)? If the client reports to you, you are now possessing CSAM. Since even possession of CSAM is illegal, how does that work?

- If a photo are flagged, will it appear in a GDPR access request?

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#155
post #151
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mmm, yes. America is the only country that has true freedom of speech. I suppose that's why a silly Canadian like me wouldn't know much about other countries. We just don't have free speech.

If you are truly interested, start with the basics and start with what has happened in your own country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_expression_in_Canad... You do not seem truly interested though. My guess is that you do not feel that your particular speech/expressions are under threat.

I'm very interested in exploring the claim I initially asked about. I'm very familiar with freedom of expression in my country, and in various other countries. I remain unconvinced that "it's often viewed as a threat" - we're just generally not absolutists about it, because we recognize there's nuance even to that.

Your America-centric view of the world is pretty fun though.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#156
post #69

The proposal leaked a few weeks ago[1] is extremely vague on this matter and does not clarify how providers should detect CSAM "prior to transmission". Is anyone aware of any sort of scanning technology that can be implemented purely on the client side? Note that the leaked text says that it should be able to detect known and new abuse material. [1] https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2024/05/2024-05-28_Cou...

The question is always about the circumstances.

In the "think of the children" scenario the parents are incentivized to consent to some filter. (So they or someone(!!!) gets an alert if the boogeyman is talking to their kids, asking them to send nudes, or sending dick pics.)

See recital 13 on top of page 7 for the definition.

And see 17 on bottom of page 8 for this:

"To allow for innovation and ensure proportionality and technological neutrality, no exhaustive list of the compulsory mitigation measures should be established"

and

(page 46) "... measures shall be ... targeted and proportionate in relation to that risk, taking into account, in particular, the seriousness of the risk as well as the provider’s financial and technological capabilities and the number of users; ..."

This is a framework. It seems to be coming from overly-anxious law nerds who can't stop thinking of the children. (And yes, this usually makes them a problem, because they're nigh unreasonable.)

It seem to be set up as a DIY thing for providers. And, again, for parents it makes sense, let your kids surf on the marked-safe-for-kids part of the Internet. (And nowadays kids really spend most of their time on (in!) certain apps, not in a web browser.)

The ugly part is that there are fines to compel the providers to adjust their risk metrics. (page 104, page 110 mentions max 6% of global turnover)

This clearly seems to be a softish push to assign a cost to internet ecosystems for online child sexual abuse.

On page 45 there are some requirements.

The provider needs to think about risks (but guidelines will come from authorities anyway), have some appropriate budget to actually work on this it the context of its own service, and then if it looks like there are problems it should spend money on remediation. (Ie. spend on content moderation, work with other providers in the industry, have a team and provide UX to notify that team, and allow users to limit what they share with others based on age.)

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#157
post #143
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Implications that the way things have always went is the only way it can go is silly at best and dangerous at worst. I apologize if I was unfair, I'm just trying to have a provocative conversation, no offense intended. Calling an acknowledgement of history either dangerous, rhetoric, or weighed with the burden of intangible implication seems like a way to shame the observer for observing what is obvious. Just menti…

If we're being (constructively) provocative, let's not pretend that the implication is all that intangible. Is it an endorsement? No. Is it an explicit statement that violence is the only way forward? No. But simply pointing it out, without expanding on it with, as you say, constructive alternative viewpoints, is very clearly implying that it's the only solution. If it's not, I ask GP: What is their point in what the…

> using history to imply dangerous things.

It's probably worth pointing out that this is a common propaganda tactic of the powerful.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#158
post #7

EU is, and always was, a compensation job for failed national politicians at their respective national levels. It's the trade horse for allowing your party buddies to take over the government jobs. EU politicians should keep their over inflated salaries, and stick to what they are good at. Meeting with Google and Microsoft lobbyists at the best Brussels luxury restaurants.

EU was established to provide mutual economic and military security in Europe on a federal model following WW2, and it's done very well in that aim. Of course it's not perfect, but shallow takes like the one above provide nothing of value.

> military security

Wasn't that NATO (aka mostly the US)?

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#159
post #100
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately outside the US and a handful of other places free speech doesn't seem to be valued that much, often it's even viewed as a threat Can you convince me of this? Because it's not my impression.

Amongst other examples: https://globalfreedomofexpression.columbia.edu/cases/e-s-v-a... . Not that I'm a particularly huge fan of some of the opinions that some of these people tend to express (to be fair in this case it's something that Muslims/their holy books acknowledge as well so it shouldn't be controversial at all...) but the whole idea of "balancing the rights to freedom of religion and expression" just seems…

The issue is when "free speech absolutists" often aren't actually that. They'll stand up to defend folks like the ones from the case you cited because "Free Speech". Yet, they'll also defend laws like the ones passed earlier in the year by the US House about codifying the IHRA's definition of anti-Semitism.

> spectrum

The spectrum is far too often simply colored by the politics one's interested in, i.e. Free Speech is simply a tool to attack another and provide justification for their own opinions. Not an actual Free Speech position.

I don't believe anyone truly has a Free Speech Absolutist position. It's always just a tool. When the speech is against you, everyone conveniently turns against it.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#160
post #4

This is why the roles of the major players in society (government, monopolies) need to be circumscribed. Large organizations will always try to grow in size and power. We need some sort of human right for digital privacy to make this sort of thing illegal.

Free speech absolutists like myself got run over culturally with hate speech laws so for anyone continuing on the fight I wish you the best of luck.

also child porn laws: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40712506
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