DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate • Hacker News Board

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#361

Post by consumer451 » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 6:49 PM UTC

dji4321234 wrote: post #350

TheChaplain wrote: post #328

I don't trust DJI. I was looking to replace my GoPro with the DJI Action, but their app was not on the Play-store. It can only be side-loaded on Android, because their app breaks a number of policies on privacy and data gathering. I believe I saw a site that decompiled their app and found a number of worrisome things.

> It can only be side-loaded on Android, because their app breaks a number of policies on privacy and data gathering. I don't think this is the reason, I think it's more that they're just too lazy to jump through the approval and maintenance hoops that come with an app store, especially because their home market (China) doesn't even use the Play Store. The iOS version of their app is Apple-approved and present in the…

> I don't think this is the reason, I think it's more that they're just too lazy to jump through the approval and maintenance hoops that come with an app store

If that was the case, then why jump through all the hoops of extensive code obfuscation for the Android app? [0]

> DJI also have a terrible track record with data security, with their entire AWS account getting ripped in 2017.

Leaving the door propped open for everyone is also plausible deniability for doing bad things.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39438842

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#362

Post by NicoJuicy » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 6:49 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #357

NicoJuicy wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet the hardware you're running on wants to have a word. Wether if it's from Samsung, Apple, Google, Microsoft, NVIDIA or AMD. And lately, Intel too. ASML

Aren't those American companies (other than Samsung)? I mean, they're all global/multi-national like most big corps, so it's not as clean as that. But it seems like you're actually agreeing with the parent...

Except Intel, all the hardware is produced in Taiwan or abroad at TSMC.

Samsung and Intel ( + all others) buy their fabs at ASML.

Cars: my preference is still German ( and Toyota). Tesla is really low build quality and it's claims for FSD ( as it's "technological innovation") is a joke. But, Waymo is ahead though.

Planes: Well, Airbus, duh.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#363

Post by Velofellow » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 6:50 PM UTC

cyrillite wrote: post #238

henvic wrote: post #28

DJI is, by far, the best drone equipment brand for photography, industrial usage, etc. It's disheartening to witness the US embracing protectionism for high-tech. If the United States does this, it might as well join the European Union's decadence in killing tech startups by stifling the competitiveness of their market...

I’ve just been considering getting into drone photography. Do you have any opinions or resources to share?

Other than waiting to see where things shake out with the Senate, perhaps Sony? I can't speak to manufacturer support, and not sure Sony will stay in the drone game in the long term where it would feel like a sound investment.

I've been looking at other commercial-esque options (mainly photogrammetry) and came across Sony's"bring your own DSLR" drone.

https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/professional-drones/ars-s1

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#364

Post by wyager » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 6:50 PM UTC

chme wrote: post #333

lukeramsden wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can start with the number of unicorns in USA vs Europe, especially when you take population in to account https://www.failory.com/unicorns

That isn't a concrete example of a regulations that hinder innovation.

What do you think the cause is? Unwashed eggs?

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#365

Post by dji4321234 » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 6:51 PM UTC

consumer451 wrote: post #361

dji4321234 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can only be side-loaded on Android, because their app breaks a number of policies on privacy and data gathering. I don't think this is the reason, I think it's more that they're just too lazy to jump through the approval and maintenance hoops that come with an app store, especially because their home market (China) doesn't even use the Play Store. The iOS version of their app is Apple-approved and present in the…

> I don't think this is the reason, I think it's more that they're just too lazy to jump through the approval and maintenance hoops that come with an app store If that was the case, then why jump through all the hoops of extensive code obfuscation for the Android app? [0] > DJI also have a terrible track record with data security, with their entire AWS account getting ripped in 2017. Leaving the door propped open for…

Anti-reversing. Obfuscation and packers are dominant in Chinese applications. If something isn't obfuscated, it's free reign for competitors.

> Leaving the door propped open for everyone is also plausible deniability for doing bad things.

We completely agree here, see "sufficient product telemetry is indistinguishable from surveillance malware." I personally don't think this justifies a blanket ban on a technology; if it did, the world would need to be a very different place.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#366

Post by wyager » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 6:51 PM UTC

nkrisc wrote: post #76

arcanemachiner wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head as a non-European: GDPR, 2-year warranties and other consumer protection laws

Oh, those pesky consumers getting in the way of the innovation of the free market with their protections. If only they could be fully exploited for maximum value extraction without interference.

This attitude is why EU countries are mostly quite poor compared to the US and have relatively unproductive and low-tech economies. You bring it upon yourself.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#367

Post by kube-system » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 6:52 PM UTC

balls187 wrote: post #309

I cannot see how this will pass legal challenge. Banning a Drone Manufacturer simply because the manufacturer is Chinese? There aren't ties to the Chinese military, are there?

> There aren't ties to the Chinese military, are there?

From a practical perspective, it could be at any time. China hasn't embraced the free market the same way the west does, and doesn't give private companies the same degree of autonomy you're used to seeing elsewhere. Broadly speaking, if the Chinese government needs a company within their jurisdiction to cooperate with them, they can enforce cooperation.

As an example, even with publicly held companies, the Chinese government will take out "special management shares" that give the government positions on the board with unique power to direct management within a company and direct management decisions. It's not like the West where companies have theit own management that might disagree with the government and battle in court. In China, the government can simply become the management of a company.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#368

Post by somehnguy » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 6:53 PM UTC

kuschku wrote: post #281

91bananas wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is true and I own a Prusa MK4, they're so behind it's not even funny.

That depends entirely on your definition of "behind". The MK4 delivers pretty much the same quality at the same speed as the P1P. Paying 30% more to get an open-source, fully modular, fully repairable and customizable product that's made sustainably with fair wages is not a huge markup. I'd gladly pay 30% more to get an Android phone that's fully modular, open-source, repairable, upgradable and made in the EU.

The speed of the MK4 for the same quality isn't even close to the P1P due to it being a bedslinger vs CoreXY gemoetry.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#369

Post by hatsix » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 6:54 PM UTC

darby_nine wrote: post #284

questhimay wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

none of this insight will help america compete with china. at first blush it seems like instead we're cutting ourselves off at the ankle.

So... what WILL help america compete with China? (without playing the same game) How could the US build out a competitive drone industry with chinese manufacturers able to cut price because the Chinese government will cover the gap?

Drones are not yet an "essential" piece of technology for the country as a whole. We're currently at "cutting ourselves off at the toe" territory... in a few years we'd be even more dependent and legislation like this would be catastrophic. Better now than in the 2026.

Re: DJI ban passes the House and moves on to the Senate

#370

Post by datahack » Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 6:55 PM UTC

deepGem wrote: post #326

DJI's response (a bit dated) https://dronedj.com/2024/03/02/dji-response-drone-ban-us/ The allegations are so subjective that they sound like some middle schooler complaining to their mom. “DJI drones are collecting vast amounts of sensitive data – everything from high-resolution images of critical U.S. infrastructure to facial recognition technology and remote sensors that can measure an individual’s body temperatur…

Allowing a company that repeatedly violates basic app store rules and exports data to a country with adversarial interests unrestricted access to our infrastructure via drones is highly problematic.

This problematic situation extends in many ways to critical sectors of our economy, including agriculture, energy, defense, etc.

The data collected by these drones is extensive and sensitive. Crop data alone is crucial, and if this information cannot be controlled, it should not be exported.

This stance is not anti-China, but no country should permit unrestricted access to its airspace for surveillance.

Data is the new oil as well, especially with AI. These drone derived datasets are becoming critical path information.

How else can you control the information besides a ban? I LOVE DJI and have several of these drones. But I don’t know how I feel about this because of the problematic data issues. It’s complex and the situation is very difficult.