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'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

theguardian.com

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Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#301

Post by EnigmaFlare »

fulafel wrote: post #154
jdietrich wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the EU, e-bikes are limited to a maximum power output of 250 watts - anything over that is a motorbike. That's basically the same power output as a decently fit cyclist. A mid-drive allows for sustained high torque even with limited power. Water ingress issues aside, mid-drives also tend to be more durable in off-road applications where the rear wheel is subject to severe shock and vibration.

Power is power, there is no combined "power + torque" that measures how much wind you have in the sails. Torque just characterises how much power you can get along different RPMs. But the EU/UK 250 W cap is so low that it seems unlikely torque characteristics would enter the picture significantly unless you're going very slowly. I think most of the mainstream EU ebike motors are capped this way (vs designed to have a…

Torque (at the wheel) does matter as well as power. With a hub motor, the gear ratio is typically fixed so you're at the mercy of the motor characteristics, but driven through the chain, you can change it. I used to have a low powered hub motor e-bike and it was fast but pretty useless at accelerating from stopped or climbing hills. At these very low speeds, an optional low gear would have put the motor in a higher power point on its speed-torque curve.

Though perhaps you're saying these motors are so over-rated that even close to stall torque, their reduced power output is still 250W? That would be an efficiency loss but not a power loss since they're not allowed to deliver full power at higher speeds.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#302

Post by tejtm »

saagarjha wrote: post #295
abdulhaq wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds very dangerous to me

Why would attaching a trailer to your bike be very dangerous?

Total bike and trailer builder and believer of yore here.

One can fail to appreciate the additional breaking forces and shifts in balance a loaded trailer introduces to the bicycle.

Where the trailer attaches should be as close to the center of gravity of the bike & rider as possible so the trailer's resultant forces have the least leverage.

The trailer hitch should be rotationaly neutral which is a gentler way of saying if the trailer flips over it should not take the bike down with it.

If the trailer has its own breaks they should slightly and lightly lead the bikes rear break.

Being careful helps, I never wrecked, but do see how the addition of electrical assist does up the concern as it could result in more mass moving fast.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#303

Post by rjh29 »

sswezey wrote: post #298
rjh29 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or a escooter or one of those things you just stand on and it moves? The main reason to ride a bike nowadays is for pleasure or exercise and a ebike defeats both.

An ebike can be for both pleasure and exercise. Most ebikes are pedelecs - you're still cycling, you're just getting a boost. They aren't loud, you just either get somewhere faster or with less effort. I find an ebike to be more pleasurable than a regular bike 90% of the time. Just because you're doing less work, doesn't mean you're doing no work. An ebike can provide mobility for people who aren't in perfect shape.…

That's fair. I can see how an ebike might encourage people to ride them more compared to owning a regular bike and never using it!

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#304

Post by DANmode »

bowsamic wrote: post #150
DANmode wrote: post #109

Wait until they realize what such an environment does to your housing, and health.

What do you mean?

> ITV News investigations have found there is a "growing problem with severe mould and damp" throughout the UK, with councils often not dealing with residents' complaints.

> Damp problems affect around six per cent of homes in London with serious condensation being the most common form.

> Damp and mould were responsible for almost a third (28 per cent) of category one hazards in London councils, more than twice the proportion seen across England as a whole.

More: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/damp-and-mould-un...

Downvoters, feel free to explain your position. Being in a place where the air is constantly ~100% water is a con for human health - sorry.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#305

Post by r00fus »

Etheryte wrote: post #225
dghlsakjg wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An internal transmission hub replaces a hub, cassette, and derailleur and starts at less than $100 for the whole kit. A derailleur can cost $10, but it won’t be nearly as durable. Buying a high quality one is gonna cost in the same neighborhood as $100.

I'm not really seeing the argument. I've never had a derailleur break, if anything, this sounds like some supreme yak shaving. Granted, I don't ride bikes for a living, but I ride a bike every day and durability isn't even remotely as big of an issue as you make it out to be.

Once the bike is dropped drive-side and the derailleur hanger is bent, all it takes is a normal ride to catch the derailleur in the spokes and you get a very expensive repair.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#306

Post by bowsamic »

DANmode wrote: post #304
bowsamic wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean?

> ITV News investigations have found there is a "growing problem with severe mould and damp" throughout the UK, with councils often not dealing with residents' complaints. > Damp problems affect around six per cent of homes in London with serious condensation being the most common form. > Damp and mould were responsible for almost a third (28 per cent) of category one hazards in London councils, more than twice the p…

The UK is not particularly humid. This is just poor house construction

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#307

Post by abdulhaq »

saagarjha wrote: post #295
abdulhaq wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds very dangerous to me

Why would attaching a trailer to your bike be very dangerous?

I've been rear-ended by other drivers a couple of times, once in the centre of town. If a child in a trailer been between the two vehicles they would have been killed. The reason for one of the rear-endings was that the brake rubber came of the pedal. I don't trust other drivers to not be on their phone or to properly maintain attention at all times. The OP also said that he did this in winter time. Here in the UK there can be black ice on the road at that time of the year.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#308

Post by prmoustache »

pastage wrote: post #88
prmoustache wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Typically only Dutch bicycle makers care about things like proper mudguards and chain guards, for example. That is not true. It is about class of bikes, not brands. Sure there are brands such as Gazelle who focus pretty much on those characteristics only but there are other brands doing the same all over the world alongside more racy models. > And, for example, the Cube bicycle as depicted in the article, is clearl…

Not sure what you mean, I think it is more about buyer culture than what class of bicycle it is. So saying "Dutch" might be a good short cut.

I would say shop culture as well as buyer cultures. A lot of shops in non cycling friendly areas just only keep stock of high margin high end road bikes and MTBs. So it may very well be that the guy in the article photo didn't knew much about bike and was sold an e-MTB because that was what was available and it looked good and unlike those bikes used by grannies and only installed fenders as a second thoughts later when he came back from a commute totally soaked.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#309

Post by londons_explore »

c0nsumer wrote: post #244
londons_explore wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internal hubs are common in places where biking is common - ie. Amsterdam. Derailleur's just seem to be far cheaper, I suspect because most of their parts can be made from stamped steel, whereas most parts of an internal gearbox must be CNC machined and face hardened.

Deraillers are a bit more efficient (almost no loss) and overall simpler to work on. They also (generally) offer a wider range of geear ratios. Internal hubs work great, but have a bit more loss, tend to weigh more, and when they start going sideways tend to go really wrong. But for the commuter-y / daily use like what you mention they tend to last and be more weather resistant. Because of all of this they haven't fo…

Derailleurs have, on average, 2% lower loss than hub gears, when new.

However, many suggest that because hub gears usually have an enclosed chain, whereas derailleurs rarely have an enclosed chain, that 2% is usually eclipsed by chain losses as the chain gets dirty/rusty/worn far faster on derailleurs.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#310

Post by hi-v-rocknroll »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #92
hi-v-rocknroll wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like a Kaabo e-scooter, a Samsung refrigerator, and most consumer electronics and appliances. Designed to fail because parts = $$$.* * In fairness, Kaabo e-scooters aren't designed, they're thrown together and spaghetti wire is rammed in every crevice without a sensible circuit or terminal diagram.

So out of the list, Kaabo e-scooters seem to be the only ones where the obsolescence is incidental, instead of planned :).

Nawh, Kaabo's are just shit but are also all about selling parts. Unfortunately, very few e-bike repair shops will work on them because they're awful. It's worth noting that 3 of the Kaabo dealers in the US are fly-by-night, shady operations unconcerned with customer service and honesty.
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