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'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

theguardian.com

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Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#271

Post by kylebenzle »

mikhailfranco wrote: post #181
lostlogin wrote: post #16

I’ve been doing a bit of (non e-bike) riding in poor weather of late, and it’s really surprising just how wet and dirty everything gets. After a wet road ride, every surface is covered in black, greasy dirt. It rots fabric, makes grinding paste in mechanical parts and generally makes everything worse. You need really good seals to keep that crap out.

The black greasy dirt is an emulsion of worn tyre particles, sandy powdered dirt and maybe a little spilt fuel. It's probably toxic - the pollution from tyre wear is underestimated.

In the tire industry we are well aware that carbon and pollution from grinding synthetic rubber into dust all day everyday is a HUGE problem, that is why we spend millions on promoting "green" rubber and natural products that we don't actually use but make a big deal about to distract people.

The biggest problem for tire companies is keeping the truth quiet about how we are on of the largest polluters.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#272

Post by notnmeyer »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #129
blacksmith_tb wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of range in internally-geared hubs though, from the crazy end with the $1500 Rohloff 14sp to the $80 Sturmey-Archer 3sp. I commute on a Shimano Alfine 11sp that's ~$200 which isn't exactly "a tenner" but if you add up the price of a derailleur, cassette, chainrings, etc. I don't think it's much different?

One of the really weird things with bikes is that entry level bikes tend to be 3x7 which means that you have a lot of extra weight and complexity (a second shifter, shift cable, and front gears) for pretty much no benefit over a 1x9 system.

i’d wager this becomes increasingly less likely. everything that isn’t the cheapest is 1x or 2x these days.

in some number of years, 3x parts will become less available and less common on cheap bikes.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#273

Post by fragmede »

hagbard_c wrote: post #91
germinalphrase wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would an internally geared hub solve for this type of wear?

Seeing how as I regularly managed to break the drive cross in my 3-speed SA hub just by pushing the thing real hard under pedal power alone - this is 40 years ago - I don't think they're particularly strong. I fixed my bike by myself so all this cost me was a new drive cross but still, it shouldn't break in the first place.

I think material science minute might have advanced over 4 decades.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#274

Post by InSteady »

londons_explore wrote: post #208
zarzavat wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there must be some clever solution to this using heat sinks / heat pipes.

There is, but weight, cost, etc. BLDC motor design also has a conundrum - most of the heat is made in the motor coils, and they can be designed to get up to about 250C, which makes them easy to cool. However, they are wrapped round thermally conductive steel touching thermally sensitive neodymium magnets which have to stay below ~60C for full performance. So it isn't simply a matter of getting rid of heat - it's a ga…

Weight really isn't such an issue with ebikes. I'm riding around a 62lb clunker, carry a 10lb chain lock everywhere, plus I'm hauling big loads of groceries and other crap. Even an extra 5lbs isn't going to make a big difference, nor would an extra $150 to the purchase price if it means years of added longevity.

The engineering challenges make sense. Hopefully it is something that is being actively R&D'd.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#275

Post by switch007 »

graemep wrote: post #22
makingstuffs wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone living in London and travelling to The Netherlands on a regular basis (intending to migrate), I have to say, pretty much everything from public transport to supermarket design seems of a much, much higher standard than its British equivalent. Further to that, it generally feels as though the UK is a country massively in decline and this transcends down to the quality of goods which we pass as acceptable. T…

> Further to that, it generally feels as though the UK is a country massively in decline To a large extent it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. People expect decline so it happens. It has been happening for a long time - back to the 1960s or so when the UK became the only only country ever (still true) to have a space launch capability and lose it. That said, IMO the causes of this are widespread across the west. It is…

Are you blaming our decline on negative attitudes?

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#276

Post by blindstitch »

lostlogin wrote: post #16

I’ve been doing a bit of (non e-bike) riding in poor weather of late, and it’s really surprising just how wet and dirty everything gets. After a wet road ride, every surface is covered in black, greasy dirt. It rots fabric, makes grinding paste in mechanical parts and generally makes everything worse. You need really good seals to keep that crap out.

After a ride in foul weather I pour a kettle of boiling water on the drivetrain, brakes, and rims, let it dry off inside, then re-lubricate. Always works like a charm.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#277

Post by InSteady »

jll29 wrote: post #203

"The latest units are protected against dust and splash water, according to protection class IP54, and most error codes caused by magnetic interference disappear on restart." This used of "latest" implies Bosch's engineers initially assumed dust and splash water aren't a thing, so by the sound of it they design indoor bike motors for people who hoover very regularly. It's the second part that worries me more, though:…

>Don't people bike because they want to get fit? If not, get a proper motorbike.

Riding an ebike is still a moderate workout especially if you are putting on the miles, hauling stuff, have hills, etc. And on most bikes you can set your engine assist in real time, so it's easy to adjust to the level of workout you are in the mood for. Which is a massive game changer for me as someone with health problems including fatigue and leg pain that doesn't own a vehicle.

I like the freedom of the ebike vs a motorcycle for city commuting, it's much quieter, I can ride on greenways and bike trails away from traffic fumes and the majority of impatient/distracted drivers. It is far lighter than a motorbike and I already have the tools and skills for basic maintenance. It is cheaper to maintain and operate. But more than anything else I have an ethical problem with the combustion engine. I drew a line in the sand long ago that I will never own nor make regular use of a gas-powered vehicle and in 20 years I still haven't crossed it.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#278

Post by InSteady »

ralfd wrote: post #211
jll29 wrote: post #203

"The latest units are protected against dust and splash water, according to protection class IP54, and most error codes caused by magnetic interference disappear on restart." This used of "latest" implies Bosch's engineers initially assumed dust and splash water aren't a thing, so by the sound of it they design indoor bike motors for people who hoover very regularly. It's the second part that worries me more, though:…

> Don't people bike because they want to get fit? In my city people bike because they want to get from A to B. E-bikes are great for that! They enable reasonable fast biking without breaking into sweat (good for commuting) and in hilly areas. First they enabled senior citizens to bike fast and longer. Then came the mountain e-bikes and made it cool. Than the city hipsters. Then family mum and dad zipping their childr…

Also insurance, yuck. Plus all that gear so that when you have to lay your bike down because some dipshit driver did something insane up ahead of you you can keep at least some of your layers of skin intact.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#279

Post by devbent »

heresie-dabord wrote: post #103
tacticalturtle wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never see them in the US outside of city bike share programs, but I feel like most casual bike users would be better served by internal gear hubs and similar closed systems. The maintenance is minimal, outside of dropping some oil in every year. But for some reason, every bike in a bike shop, including the most casual upright bike, has a finicky derailleur. So instead we’re doomed to a life of misaligned derailleur…

If in a dry climate, a derailleur transmission can last a long time and will be cheap to maintain. But once a person starts replacing quality components with like quality, especially in a wet climate, a derailleur transmission can be expensive over 10 years. The set of my experience is { Shimano: [ $various_derailleurs, Nexus 3, Nexus 7, Alfine 11 ] , Rohloff: [14 speed], Other: [rear-hub e-bike] } $various_derailleu…

> e-bike -- reliable, fast and fun, but zero exercise

I disagree on the last point, I can turn the motor up or down, or all the way off, based on how much of a workout I want to get.

Also the only reason I'm willing to bike around my hilly city (Seattle) is because I have an ebike.

To put it another way, across 3 or 4 blocks I have around a 100 meter incline on the way to a park.

Can experienced bicyclists who are in good shape pull that off? With a kid on the back of their bike? Sure. But an ebike lets me turn turn the motor on for that part, and turn it off when I'm not doing something as difficult.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#280

Post by rjh29 »

ARandomerDude wrote: post #130
hi-v-rocknroll wrote: post #29

If it's a Chinese e-bike, it's probably lying about being IPX67. OTOH, Riese & Müller $15k USD e-bikes aren't IPX anything because the Bosch components aren't. If you get it wet, just kiss that money goodbye. Absolutely bonkers.

Serious question, why would a person spend that kind of money on an ebike? An entry-level motorcycle is less than half that. What benefit does the bike get you that a motorcycle doesn't? One example among many: https://powersports.honda.com/motorcycle/cruiser/rebel-500

or a escooter or one of those things you just stand on and it moves? The main reason to ride a bike nowadays is for pleasure or exercise and a ebike defeats both.
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