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'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

theguardian.com

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Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#201

Post by dsego »

tacticalturtle wrote: post #89
lostlogin wrote: post #16

I’ve been doing a bit of (non e-bike) riding in poor weather of late, and it’s really surprising just how wet and dirty everything gets. After a wet road ride, every surface is covered in black, greasy dirt. It rots fabric, makes grinding paste in mechanical parts and generally makes everything worse. You need really good seals to keep that crap out.

I never see them in the US outside of city bike share programs, but I feel like most casual bike users would be better served by internal gear hubs and similar closed systems. The maintenance is minimal, outside of dropping some oil in every year. But for some reason, every bike in a bike shop, including the most casual upright bike, has a finicky derailleur. So instead we’re doomed to a life of misaligned derailleur…

I think the finicky part is the indexing system, the old friction shifters were way more reliable. On an indexing shifter any knock on the rear mech can bend the hanger and mess up the shifting and it can't be adjusted without straightening the hanger. A good indicator of a bent derailleur hanger is that adjusting works on one part of the cassette but than causes issues on the other end. On a friction shifter it doesn't matter, you can always make adjustments by hand. Internal hubs are heavy, drag like mud and usually require twist shifters.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#202

Post by dsego »

londons_explore wrote: post #190
microtonal wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still cleaning regularly is a lot of work (been there) and most people here never clean it, resulting in unreliable shifting and non-smooth cycling. Most people are better served by an internal hub and belt drive. Almost no maintenance (just bring it to a bike shop yearly to get it tuned up again).

Internal hubs are common in places where biking is common - ie. Amsterdam. Derailleur's just seem to be far cheaper, I suspect because most of their parts can be made from stamped steel, whereas most parts of an internal gearbox must be CNC machined and face hardened.

> Internal hubs are common in places where biking is common - ie. Amsterdam.

And by sheer coincidence, the popularity of bicycles and internal hubs coincides with having extremely flat terrain.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#203

Post by jll29 »

"The latest units are protected against dust and splash water, according to protection class IP54, and most error codes caused by magnetic interference disappear on restart."

This used of "latest" implies Bosch's engineers initially assumed dust and splash water aren't a thing, so by the sound of it they design indoor bike motors for people who hoover very regularly.

It's the second part that worries me more, though: "most" (= not all) error codes disappear on research, i.e. you have to regularly reboot your e-bike, like a 1998 Windows PC? Sorry, I never want to reboot an appliance, because real bikes never required that in the past, so it has been shown it is possible.

I never want an e-bike, and I don't like throwing away engines because of the environmental damage. Don't people bike because they want to get fit? If not, get a proper motorbike.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#204

Post by 7bit »

IshKebab wrote: post #155
Too wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Convenience and sense of freedom. No license required, can lend it to friends or kids. Can be parked anywhere. Can be loaded on a car, ferry and some places even the metro. Can ride them on bike lanes, the forest and the sidewalk. More approachable diy maintenance. Don't need full leather protection, just a helmet and t-shirt and you are good to go. If you are only traveling max 30km within the town, you don't need a…

> Can be parked anywhere Jesus I wouldn't park a $15k bike anywhere...

You took the Most expensive example to make your Point.

Who even owns a 15k bike? 0.0001 % of the population?

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#205

Post by jadyoyster »

jll29 wrote: post #203

"The latest units are protected against dust and splash water, according to protection class IP54, and most error codes caused by magnetic interference disappear on restart." This used of "latest" implies Bosch's engineers initially assumed dust and splash water aren't a thing, so by the sound of it they design indoor bike motors for people who hoover very regularly. It's the second part that worries me more, though:…

> Don't people bike because they want to get fit?

People bike because they want to get around. Also, a bicycle is a lot less bulky and more quiet than a motorbike and it doesn't require a license.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#206

Post by londons_explore »

inglor_cz wrote: post #199
HeatrayEnjoyer wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no combustion, why is there cooling at all?

Friction of internal components of the motor -> heat.

It's mostly heating due to the resistance of the motor coils and magnetic hysteresis of the steel core. Friction is a small part.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#207

Post by nradov »

wyre wrote: post #143
nradov wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A derailleur makes it a lot easier to maintain correct chain tension. Fixing a rear flat by the side of the road is more of a hassle with an internal transmission hub (or a fixie).

I’d argue fixing a flat on a IGH or fixed gear/single speed is easier than a geared bike. Hardest thing about a single speed is needing the proper tool to remove the axle nuts, but after that take the chain off the cog and the wheel will slip right out, just as easy to put back in, just reverse the process. Getting chain tension can be tricky, but tighten the drive side bolt first at the point the chainline has about…

Tubeless sucks. I've seen several cyclists on group rides running tubeless tires have flats that couldn't be fixed at all, or required installing a tube to get home. Maybe it works well enough for mountain bikes but for road bikes the tubeless tires seem too weak.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#208

Post by londons_explore »

zarzavat wrote: post #193
londons_explore wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most ebike motors are air cooled - ie. Outdoor air goes into the motor and flows around the magnets and coils to cool them. Such a design is fundamentally incompatible with being fully water sealed.

I feel like there must be some clever solution to this using heat sinks / heat pipes.

There is, but weight, cost, etc.

BLDC motor design also has a conundrum - most of the heat is made in the motor coils, and they can be designed to get up to about 250C, which makes them easy to cool.

However, they are wrapped round thermally conductive steel touching thermally sensitive neodymium magnets which have to stay below ~60C for full performance.

So it isn't simply a matter of getting rid of heat - it's a game of preventing heat transfer.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#209

Post by londons_explore »

dsego wrote: post #202
londons_explore wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internal hubs are common in places where biking is common - ie. Amsterdam. Derailleur's just seem to be far cheaper, I suspect because most of their parts can be made from stamped steel, whereas most parts of an internal gearbox must be CNC machined and face hardened.

> Internal hubs are common in places where biking is common - ie. Amsterdam. And by sheer coincidence, the popularity of bicycles and internal hubs coincides with having extremely flat terrain.

Internal hubs now can have just as much range of ratios as derailleur's.

They also have the benefit they can change gear while stationary (very handy for traffic lights etc)

Historical (ie. 1960's) internal hubs only had 3 gears, so what you say might have led to market dominance.

Re: 'The big problem is water': UK ebike owners plagued by failing motors

#210

Post by stavros »

I notice that we've been seeing a lot of articles here about how e-bikes have motor problems, how EVs don't sell, how EVs have issues, how they "aren't really green", etc, yet we never see any such articles for ICE cars and motorcycles. I wonder why there's such interest in maligning green ways of transportation.
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