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The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

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Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#61

Post by AnotherGoodName »

Here's a thought. Imagine there's another new way of doing things that quickly becomes pretty much ubiquitous in programming (containers may be a good example?). For those who have already graduated long ago and thus didn't learn that new thing in university are you seriously concerned about the people graduating not being rote taught this particular technology?

Git isn't even 20 years old. I graduated before that. I learnt the basics of version control in a day and searched to unblock myself when needed without fuss. It's not a particularly big deal.

When i read things like this I'm extremely concerned and embarrassed for the people demanding new graduates be rote taught specific tech stacks. That's the real concern here. The projection from having so little faith in their own ability to learn they can't even see that something like git is going to be one of the many things needing to be learnt on a new job.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#62

Post by DougN7 »

seadan83 wrote: post #51
serf wrote: post #24

who cares? git is a tool, not a discipline. It's made to facilitate work, not to create a whole knowledge domain unto itself. I wouldn't fault a seasoned and well trained mechanic for not knowing the specifics of a specialty tool necessitating the need to find the manual; similarly although git is the current VCS-ish thing of choice right now, it doesn't represent all of computer science.

VCS is something that is interacted with multiple times a day in any codebase. It is a basic tool, not too far apart from being able to traverse a file system. The next step after viewing files, is being able to commit to and view the history of those files. I dont know if that answers "who cares", but a mechanic that does not know how to do something they need to do multiple times every day - there is a skill gap. W…

Any code base?? I question your depth of exposure.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#63

Post by seadan83 »

alexmolas wrote: post #4

This is why it's called Computer Science, and not Software Engineering.

CS is an underpinning to software engineering. Knowing how code is translated to assembly to then machine language is helpful to engineering. It is helpful to know how to analyze algorithms, to have studied and implemented algorithms.

Though.. in software engineering, being able to write well is perhaps the single most important skill. Communication, documentation, very important.

Are we going to then say English majors are the best programmers? If they later become dev managers or director - then perhaps. Does a person learn English really well by also learning Latin and the origins of english and it's great works? I believe yes, and that is why I think knowing the theory and underpinnings of CS are very useful foundational knowledge. Required? No, but nor is touch typing or anything else that makes a person extremely competent.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#64

Post by seadan83 »

threatofrain wrote: post #17
Uehreka wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So where should people who want to learn the discipline of software engineering go? It’s definitely what most CS majors are actually there for, and there’s no separate software engineering major at (almost) any liberal arts colleges. I get that saying “that’s why it’s CS not SE” is the hip thing to say when this comes up, but it doesn’t answer the underlying issue, which is that people want a mix of theory and job tr…

Some universities differentiate between engineering and CS.

Likely a good development. My class of some decades ago was one of the first where it was an actual CS degree and not applied math.

CS is an infant of a field. Not too surprising perhaps the degrees would specialize.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#65

Post by theobr »

serf wrote: post #24

who cares? git is a tool, not a discipline. It's made to facilitate work, not to create a whole knowledge domain unto itself. I wouldn't fault a seasoned and well trained mechanic for not knowing the specifics of a specialty tool necessitating the need to find the manual; similarly although git is the current VCS-ish thing of choice right now, it doesn't represent all of computer science.

If a mechanic didn’t know how to use a hammer, I’d fault the mechanic for sure.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#66

Post by AnotherGoodName »

noahtallen wrote: post #44
serf wrote: post #24

who cares? git is a tool, not a discipline. It's made to facilitate work, not to create a whole knowledge domain unto itself. I wouldn't fault a seasoned and well trained mechanic for not knowing the specifics of a specialty tool necessitating the need to find the manual; similarly although git is the current VCS-ish thing of choice right now, it doesn't represent all of computer science.

It’s a fair point. At the same time, I think it’s pretty important to cover VCS at some point in college. My CS degree included a couple classes with projects where we did project management, code review, VCS, working with stakeholders, design, etc. —- most of that is just part of life in programming. It’s good to at least touch on it in college.

What about containers. These are now pretty ubiquitous too. Should they also be taught containers? Package management? Document management systems?

I feel like there's a line where we expect some on the job ramp up. Version control was not ubiquitous 20 years ago even if it technically existed in some early form. We honestly weren't really using SVN/CVS much back then and git wasn't invented 20 years ago. Containerization is another example where it was not ubiquitous even 10 years ago.

What if some new technology becomes fairly ubiquitous across the industry? There's some line where you need to accept people won't be taught this in a CS degree. There's a reasonable assumption that you'll learn on the job and also continuously throughout your career.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#67

Post by seadan83 »

h2odragon wrote: post #2

"its so easy to use!" tho, right? Why should one need formal education to pick it up? Git is like Autoconf for a lot of problems: utterly unnecessary but often included by default because people have been told "best practice" and never thought to ask themselves if that was true in their case.

At first a person follows a best practice because they dont know anything else.

Next, a person learns why something is actually a best practice. Which, eventually is a way to also learn whdn something is no longer the best practice. They learn when to break the best practice, specifically which situations it is not best.

Not being able to rollback or view file history are major handicaps. It is like not being able to dribble a basketball with your left hand. It is a best practice to be an ambidextrous dribbler. CS is young, some best practices are opinion, others are tools that you should know about in order to achieve basic competency.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#68

Post by whitfieldsdad »

This has proven to be an extremely controversial topic, but, in my opinion, it's perfectly okay to use git in college or university, and we should encourage, not discourage people from using technologies like distributed version control software.

You could substitute git with WhatsApp, Google Drive, or e-mail for small projects, and get by just fine, but, why not spend 15 minutes learning the basics of git?

As far as I know, the use of git and other distributed version control software is very popular, and we don't see the same hesitation when adopting technologies like Google Docs and its collaborative editing features in college or university.

Is distributed version control software truly a controversial technology?

If distributed version control software is not suitable for use in college and university, what would be a more appropriate technology?

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#69

Post by qludes »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #66
noahtallen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a fair point. At the same time, I think it’s pretty important to cover VCS at some point in college. My CS degree included a couple classes with projects where we did project management, code review, VCS, working with stakeholders, design, etc. —- most of that is just part of life in programming. It’s good to at least touch on it in college.

What about containers. These are now pretty ubiquitous too. Should they also be taught containers? Package management? Document management systems? I feel like there's a line where we expect some on the job ramp up. Version control was not ubiquitous 20 years ago even if it technically existed in some early form. We honestly weren't really using SVN/CVS much back then and git wasn't invented 20 years ago. Containeriz…

Dating myself here, my SUN Microsystems sponsored university did have all kinds of VCS. Not just the FOTM stuff but also weird academic toys.

>Should they also be taught containers? Yes, because that's how things are done today while 20 years ago they might have all ssh'd into the same server running the development environment and 30 years ago they would have all sat in the same computer lab. And 'taught' in a sense that lists them a few good documentation resources to get them up to speed while using a provided image.

And if they end up with an actual degree they should have covered both hypervisors and containers in an operating systems course.

Re: The number of CS grads who don't even know basic Git commands is astounding

#70

Post by [deleted] »

AnotherGoodName wrote: post #61

Here's a thought. Imagine there's another new way of doing things that quickly becomes pretty much ubiquitous in programming (containers may be a good example?). For those who have already graduated long ago and thus didn't learn that new thing in university are you seriously concerned about the people graduating not being rote taught this particular technology? Git isn't even 20 years old. I graduated before that. I…

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