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Gen AI will increase demand for software engineers

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Re: Gen AI will increase demand for software engineers

#42
post #35

AI isn't about to become capable of doing the job of a software developer any time soon, not least because two of it's major weaknesses - extremely limited reasoning ability and extremely limited learning ability (in-context only) are the two things that software developers most heavily lean on. It's not clear whether these are things that can really be addressed without major architectural change. There's still mass…

What kind of time frame is "any time soon"? If you're thinking over the next 3-5 years, then AI is a novelty in most cases, a useful tool in some cases, and something truly disruptive in a fairly narrow set of cases. If you expand the time frame to 10-20 years, then AI is poised to become something that truly upsets most of the economy. Obviously, nothing can be said for certain, there could be black swan events, etc…

What is "AI"?

Definitions vary, but all definitions I have heard seem to boil down to one thing: AI is little more than a set of fancy programming languages. Which means you still always need a human to be the programmer. Nothing really can change for the white collar so long as you still have to provide instruction. That's what white collar people do.

"AGI" draws a distinction – where the machines start to be able to act as completely independent agents without needing a human to give instruction. Is this, perhaps, what you are envisioning in 10-20 years?

Re: Gen AI will increase demand for software engineers

#43
post #35

AI isn't about to become capable of doing the job of a software developer any time soon, not least because two of it's major weaknesses - extremely limited reasoning ability and extremely limited learning ability (in-context only) are the two things that software developers most heavily lean on. It's not clear whether these are things that can really be addressed without major architectural change. There's still mass…

What kind of time frame is "any time soon"? If you're thinking over the next 3-5 years, then AI is a novelty in most cases, a useful tool in some cases, and something truly disruptive in a fairly narrow set of cases. If you expand the time frame to 10-20 years, then AI is poised to become something that truly upsets most of the economy. Obviously, nothing can be said for certain, there could be black swan events, etc…

There are a lot of assumptions built into your statement that AI will “upset” most of the economy in 20 years. Impact? Sure. But your argument seems to be implying AGI will be achieved (at scale, no less) in 20 years. This is an extraordinary claim even if Altman likes to throw out 5 year timelines for AGI. Similar to how musk (who is also a VC not an engineer or scientist) has been saying self driving teslas were right around the corner for the last ~7 years.

AI today is not even close to replicating the brain’s ability to perform multiple tasks together without suddenly hallucinating a totally different task at multiple points in the project. LLMs are good at regurgitating text, I would hope so after they just memorized all available text data. I can feel the chill of the next AI winter right around the corner, personally.

Re: Gen AI will increase demand for software engineers

#44
GenAI will indeed drop the cost of software creation and therefore increase demand for more software.

Things that formerly were prohibitively expensive are now cheap enough to be doable. Which increases the market for software engineers that can get things done with the help of AI and other tools. These won't be the type of software engineers that specialize in things that should be automated but the type of engineers that can build a lot of stuff that formerly would have required them to delegate a lot of work to other engineers.

This is how the software developer community has historically grown actually. It used to be that software engineers were faffing about with punch cards, assembly code, etc. Working months to produce a few kb worth of software. No libraries or anything. It all ran on bare metal. These days what engineers build is the tip of the iceberg because it all runs on frameworks, libraries, operating systems, etc. that do all of the heavy lifting. Which makes them way more productive than their colleagues from half a century ago.

Re: Gen AI will increase demand for software engineers

#45
post #35

AI isn't about to become capable of doing the job of a software developer any time soon, not least because two of it's major weaknesses - extremely limited reasoning ability and extremely limited learning ability (in-context only) are the two things that software developers most heavily lean on. It's not clear whether these are things that can really be addressed without major architectural change. There's still mass…

What kind of time frame is "any time soon"? If you're thinking over the next 3-5 years, then AI is a novelty in most cases, a useful tool in some cases, and something truly disruptive in a fairly narrow set of cases. If you expand the time frame to 10-20 years, then AI is poised to become something that truly upsets most of the economy. Obviously, nothing can be said for certain, there could be black swan events, etc…

> If you expand the time frame to 10-20 years, then AI is poised to become something that truly upsets most of the economy. Obviously, nothing can be said for certain, there could be black swan events, etc. But on the current trajectory [...]

This is an interesting framing that I think exposes a key difference between people who view AI dominance as inevitable and those who don't. You view the progress of AI slowing down as a black swan event, something that's extremely unlikely. I, on the other hand, view it as inevitable.

Technology has never progressed along a single axis linearly or exponentially for very long. Technology progresses in bursts—there's a major breakthrough that leads to a huge amount of interest and progress which leads to rapid growth in a particular area until it saturates. After a few years we start to see diminishing returns as the area opened by the breakthrough becomes fully explored, and eventually progress becomes very slow indeed until the next major breakthrough.

Given this general pattern of progress in technology, it would be very foolish indeed to predict the next 20 years' trajectory of AI less than 2 years after ChatGPT was released.

Re: Gen AI will increase demand for software engineers

#46
I'm writing a book about building mobile apps[1]. I've worked on it for over two years (I have a day job). When I started taking preorders, it coincided with the AI gold rush. I thought, "Fark, now people can just use AI instead of reading my book". But my sales are actually quite good (for a nobody).

Thankfully, AI is still not there yet to make "professional" (as most people would define it) apps—unless maybe when people start feeding my book contents into GenAI, ha! (I guess it's a compliment?)

Also, AI is like DB. Sure, you can use DBeaver or something to access it "raw", but 90% of us programmers are still hired to write a CRUD wrapper. Same thing with AI. It's more useful to have an app supercharged with AI wherever it makes sense.

[1] https://opinionatedlaunch.com

Re: Gen AI will increase demand for software engineers

#47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of time frame is "any time soon"? If you're thinking over the next 3-5 years, then AI is a novelty in most cases, a useful tool in some cases, and something truly disruptive in a fairly narrow set of cases. If you expand the time frame to 10-20 years, then AI is poised to become something that truly upsets most of the economy. Obviously, nothing can be said for certain, there could be black swan events, etc…

> If you expand the time frame to 10-20 years, then AI is poised to become something that truly upsets most of the economy. Obviously, nothing can be said for certain, there could be black swan events, etc. But on the current trajectory [...] This is an interesting framing that I think exposes a key difference between people who view AI dominance as inevitable and those who don't. You view the progress of AI slowing…

You worded your comment much better than I did, and you touch on the key point in all of this which is the assumption that chatGPT etc will continue to get noticeably better at regular intervals. It’s entirely possible that openAI has reached a local maximum with the data, compute, and model structure they have available.

The data is tapped out for the most part. They already probably acquired 80% of the available text training data.

Compute is now heavily cost constrained. This is obvious because even GPTs responses have gotten worse over the last 6 months, especially with image generation tasks. Likely because they’re throttling compute.

Model structure: OpenAI has admitted that they cannot understand why chatGPT has generated a given output. If you can’t explain your model you can’t improve it either. And more compute won’t help you that much here if I had to guess.

Re: Gen AI will increase demand for software engineers

#48
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious as to what engineering solutions you think are available to solve this problem? All the solutions I've heard up until now is "we just need more data" which isn't particularly sustainable or something a SWE would be in charge of doing

It’s not my expertise. However, if it’s a barrier to adoption it’s a problem to solve and will be. AI is exponentially improving and there is no reason to believe that this won’t continue.

> AI is exponentially improving

The theoretical research may have improved exponentially. Implementations available for use seem to be on the decline – at best, stagnant. I find less and less utility as time goes on. Things LLMs shined at a couple of years ago now produce garbage. And for creative work, the output is much too formulaic, which was all well and good initially while still novel, but one has to keep pushing new boundaries and the current crop of tools really seems to struggle with that.

Re: Gen AI will increase demand for software engineers

#49

It’s weird that there’s people who seem to be “against” AI assisted programming. That’s like being against IDEs or git. It’s like writers who were brought up on typewriters being against word processors.

IDEs can be useful, but can also weaken developers. People get used to the IDE keeping track of bloated, overly complex interfaces. Autocompletion also leads to a style of development where every term must be defined before it can be used in any code. That may seem to make sense at first, but in practice means that it becomes impossible to freely sketch out code paths without first defining all terms. Depending on context this may all be appropriate and valuable, but it is worth keeping in mind that IDE saturated development has particular characteristics and may potentially amount to a crutch or even an impediment.

Re: Gen AI will increase demand for software engineers

#50
post #35

AI isn't about to become capable of doing the job of a software developer any time soon, not least because two of it's major weaknesses - extremely limited reasoning ability and extremely limited learning ability (in-context only) are the two things that software developers most heavily lean on. It's not clear whether these are things that can really be addressed without major architectural change. There's still mass…

What kind of time frame is "any time soon"? If you're thinking over the next 3-5 years, then AI is a novelty in most cases, a useful tool in some cases, and something truly disruptive in a fairly narrow set of cases. If you expand the time frame to 10-20 years, then AI is poised to become something that truly upsets most of the economy. Obviously, nothing can be said for certain, there could be black swan events, etc…

> What kind of time frame is "any time soon"

I'm guessing that solving run-time learning may well require a different approach, and it's not clear that reasoning (in general form - ability to dynamically synthesize a problem-specific solution) can be just added to LLMs either (e.g. by adding tree search). There are also other missing components such as working memory that seem simpler to solve.

Coming up with brand new architectures and learning approaches is likely to take time. There have been attempts to find alternatives to gradient descent, but none very successful despite a lot of effort.

Perhaps it's just a reflection of people chasing the low hanging fruit (and as Chollet says, LLMs "sucking all the oxygen out of the room"), but architectural advance post-LLM has been minimal. In 7 years we've basically just gone from transformer paper to big pre-trained transformers.

Even when workable architectural approaches to run-time learning and reasoning have been developed, they will also need to be scaled up (another 7 years?), and will also be competing with LLMs for mindshare and dev. resources as long as scaling LLMs continues to be seen as profitable.

The timescale for coming up with new architectures and approaches is hard to predict. AGI prediction timeframes have always been wrong, and the transformer was really one of history's accidental discoveries. Who'd have guessed that a better seq-to-seq model would create such capabilities!

If I had to guess, I'd say human-level AGI (human-level in terms of both capability and generality) is still 15-20 years away at least. 7 years to go from small transformers to big transformers doesn't make me optimistic that architectural innovation is going to happen very quickly, and anyways this is an unpredictable research problem, not an engineering one.

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