Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world

#111

Post by aaomidi » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 1:37 PM UTC

Rinzler89 wrote: post #107

aaomidi wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is range seriously a problem for someone in Europe? US I kinda get it, superchargers help but they’re not perfect, but in europe?

>Is range seriously a problem for someone in Europe? US I kinda get it, superchargers help but they’re not perfect, but in europe? For a lot of people yeah. The cars isn't just for trips to work and the supermarket (which sometimes can be done by foot, public transport or bicycle), but that same car is used for vacation trips in summer and winter with the whole family. You can call it an edge case, but edge cases mat…

> but that same car is used for vacation trips in summer and winter with the whole family.

Right, and the charging network isn't _that_ bad, is it? Like, I've now done 4 cross country trips in the US (PA FL WA) in both summer, and winter. With the pre-heat-pump-for-heating Tesla Model 3. I basically had to charge one to two times a day, for about 20-30 minutes each time. This was genuinely a good way to force me to stop and take a break too.

I don't really consider these cars a limitation for long distance trips either?

Re: Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world

#112

Post by Rinzler89 » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 1:43 PM UTC

aaomidi wrote: post #111

Rinzler89 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is range seriously a problem for someone in Europe? US I kinda get it, superchargers help but they’re not perfect, but in europe? For a lot of people yeah. The cars isn't just for trips to work and the supermarket (which sometimes can be done by foot, public transport or bicycle), but that same car is used for vacation trips in summer and winter with the whole family. You can call it an edge case, but edge cases mat…

> but that same car is used for vacation trips in summer and winter with the whole family. Right, and the charging network isn't _that_ bad, is it? Like, I've now done 4 cross country trips in the US (PA FL WA) in both summer, and winter. With the pre-heat-pump-for-heating Tesla Model 3. I basically had to charge one to two times a day, for about 20-30 minutes each time. This was genuinely a good way to force me to s…

Good for you. But I'm talking about Europe, not the US.

And most don't have (and can't afford) Teslas here. Maybe in Norway and Switzerland, but not all Europe is like that.

A lot of non-supercharger infra here is non-existent or slow charging meaning long distance trips are gonna be much longer and less predictable, hence why those who rent cars for long distance trips never rent EVs.

>and the charging network isn't _that_ bad, is it?

You've never interacted with non-supercharger chargers have you? Like broken ones with issues, or crap payment systems that don't work. It's the kind of things giving people major anxiety.

Re: Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world

#113

Post by ivankuz » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 1:46 PM UTC

PurpleRamen wrote: post #55

probably_wrong wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is surprising to me, though, seeing as Germany was the country responsible for undercutting the ban [1] on sales of new combustion engine cars in the EU after 2035. It is wild to me that they would block such an important deal knowing that they are already ahead of everyone else. [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/cars/eu-combustion-engine...

There is an ongoing war between the progressive and old forces. And the old forces try very hard to preserve the outdated technologies for whatever reason. Problem is that they are few, but in powerful positions, so they poison the waters for everyone, as they did already for the last decade with the whole energy-topic. At this point, it's really ridiculous how much one can stay behind and still harm everyone.

I'm not sure I follow you on the energy topic? If anything, the "progressive" shutdown of the nukes was a rather questionable move.

In general, I think there's a relatively healthy balance, albeit, with a fair bit of animosity between the sides.

The thing about "outdated technologies" is - they work. It's really easy to see in the software world, where I will choose a battle-tested technology any day, over the new flashy thing that everybody's buzzing about that is in theory or with many iterations will be great. So why would other industries be different? Surely there will be a drag from people whose wealth depends on the technology/approach being used, but that's just how it works. If I put a lot of effort into developing a thing, I will defend the thing as much as I can, and it's the job of the newcomers to push me over with big enough arguments.

Re: Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world

#114

Post by Rinzler89 » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 1:48 PM UTC

aaomidi wrote: post #110

jakewins wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you dig a bit you’ll find studies that show things like “95% of vehicles are driven less than per day” So no, I don’t think range is a huge issue, and fast charging infra is a lot better in EU than US in my experience. Price though - it’s a tall order to expect everyone to buy EVs when the low cost options are so much higher than the low cost gasoline options. I can see how that would make politicians nervous

> Price though - it’s a tall order to expect everyone to buy EVs when the low cost options are so much higher than the low cost gasoline options. I can see how that would make politicians nervous 100%. Honestly, I hope that we use this opportunity to improve public transit in Europe a lot more than it already is done. Both: 1. Better bike lanes, everywhere, well maintained throughout seasons with good government subs…

>I hope that we use this opportunity to improve public transit in Europe a lot more than it already is done.

And I hope for all wars and world famine to end and all employers to let me WFH so I won't need a car and to raise my salary by at least inflation every year. The thing is we rarely get what we wish for, and in the EU countries I've been it's not really improving at the rate needed for people to give up on cars. The reality is the public transportation infra develops much slower than the demand shifts on the ground, hence why cars will always be with us.

Re: Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world

#115

Post by palata » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 1:51 PM UTC

lispm wrote: post #78

Herz wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be even less and even faster decline of coal with nuclear But for Germany the priorities were other than decarbonization.

But then we would have to deal with expensive and problematic nuclear. It's much more efficient to scale renewable energy, then deploy old technology like current nuclear powerplants, which are extremely costly with lots of unsolved problems. If you look at the countries which deploy nuclear, they have/use mostly government run industries. That's not our goal. Germany also has no nuclear weapons, where other countrie…

This is upside down. Nuclear energy has pretty much nothing to do with nuclear weapons, and is pretty much solved. Also it's not "old" technology (there are new designs like the 4th gen that we actually need).

Scaling renewable energy is an open problem: it has never been done. It's easy to say that "renewables doubled last year" when they go from "marginal" to "still marginal". Renewable energy is intermittent, and that is completely unsolved between seasons.

Re: Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world

#116

Post by rightbyte » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 1:52 PM UTC

VBprogrammer wrote: post #71

aaomidi wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is range seriously a problem for someone in Europe? US I kinda get it, superchargers help but they’re not perfect, but in europe?

I wouldn't say range is really a problem outside of a few groups - people who tow horses or caravans, people who use their car routinely for long journeys. The challenge, certainly in the UK, is that only half the population has the potential to charge their car "off-street" and the roll out of on street charging is slow and the costs mean it could cost more than conventional car - which given it's also more expensiv…

Spamming posts with 4 pieces of 16A outlets shouldn't be too hard though. That is essentially how marinas might look, or parking lots in countries with alot of snow for cabin heaters.

Alas, I believe the poor in rentals will just end up with shitty rent seeking app-driven spyware chargers.

Re: Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world

#117

Post by belorn » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 1:53 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #61

madspindel wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, stop importing from Sweden then. And let us deal with our own preferred solutions.

Tell that you uave no idea how electricity grids work and why a connected one across a whole region is better than isolated ones without tellong you know shit about that topic...

Sweden is perfectly energy independent as long they don't export. Existing nuclear and wind production is perfectly able to produce the wast majority of energy that get consumed, and national hydro power has so far capacity to last through any periods of low production. There are also additional thermal power plants that operates on gas, oil and garbage to balance the grid.

What Sweden do not have is hydro capacity to also power nearby countries while maintaining low prices and energy independence. From a national perspective, the natural resources that is hydro power would results in lower energy prices in Sweden if they did not share the market prices of the European grid (Multiple energy experts has voiced this in the last few years of energy debates).

However, Sweden has agreements to allow free trade of energy as part of the EU membership. Many of the stakes holder in the hydro power is also non-state owned, which means they are legally allowed to export the energy at the highest bid even if that results in higher costs for Swedish citizens. In theory the government could issue tariffs to recover some of the value from the natural resources that is hydro power, but that would lead to rather severe geo political consequences. Denmark is for example one of the largest importer of Swedish energy, and energy tariffs would basically target the Swedish-Danish relationship in a rather major negative way.

Re: Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world

#118

Post by palata » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 1:54 PM UTC

leononame wrote: post #24

toenail wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, fwiw, Russia is still #1 by population if you only count population in Europe.

That's definitely fair. I just blurped it out that way because, at least in my experience, Russia isn't really considered a European country "colloquially". At least where I'm from, people would usually say it's Asian when asked what continent Russia belongs to (if they had to pick one). But I agree it doesn't really hold up to more detailed scrutiny.

> At least where I'm from, people would usually say it's Asian when asked what continent Russia belongs to (if they had to pick one).

I believe you, but those people would then be wrong :-).

Re: Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world

#119

Post by palata » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 1:54 PM UTC

thelastgallon wrote: post #63

Germany is weird. They talk a lot about green, but sabotage and protest against Tesla factory, because 'reasons'. While being perfectly ok with Coal strip mining. The mine is on the site of the ancient Hambach Forest, which was purchased by RWE in 1978. The company then cut most of the forest down and cleared it to mine. Only 10% of the forest area remains: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hambach_surface_mine https://w…

> They talk a lot about green, but sabotage and protest against Tesla factory

Tesla cars are everything but green.

Re: Germany is No 1 in Europe for EV production, No 2 in the world

#120

Post by tarsinge » Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 1:55 PM UTC

Rinzler89 wrote: post #36

probably_wrong wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is surprising to me, though, seeing as Germany was the country responsible for undercutting the ban [1] on sales of new combustion engine cars in the EU after 2035. It is wild to me that they would block such an important deal knowing that they are already ahead of everyone else. [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/24/cars/eu-combustion-engine...

It's not really surprising. EVs (both foreign and domestic) haven't caught up in price and range as fast as expected since the proposal was originally made, for EVs to be a drop-in replacement for ICE cars the voting population can afford and drives to work everyday and on vacation in the south of Europe every summer. And neither is the EV charging infrastructure already there to support the same use cases. And since…

Price is a marketing choice, EU manufacturers (with a few exceptions) are choosing to position EV cars at the high end of their offering and brand them as high tech for high margins. More largely EU manufacturers currently have the problem of trying to position their whole offering as high end.