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Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

maggieappleton.com

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Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#51
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not really a new problem, the previous version being "idk, I copy pasted it from stack overflow." True expertise realized that the answer often lay buried in sub-comments and the top voted answer is not often the correct one. LLM's naturally do not realize any of this.

I kind of disagree. chatgpt will make something that looks much more like it should work than your copy-pasted code from stackoverflow. It looks like it does exactly what you want. It's just riddled with bugs. Major (invented an api out of whole cloth; it would sure be convenient if that api did exist tho!) or subtle (oh, this bash script will bedshit and even overwrite data if your paths have spaces.) Or it will hap…

You’re kind of saying some of what I am trying to so I’m not sure we disagree. I boil down the core problem described to being roughly: people lacking expertise to judge code advice critically are putting bad code they do not understand into places they shouldn’t. This is the problem that is not new. LLM’s are a variation on the problem because they have the downside of not allowing you to view for yourself the surrounding context to determine on your own what the correct answer is. The fact they are so convincing at it is a different, but definitely new and horrific problem on its own.

Meta commentary on this, I honestly don’t mind if this is the hell that the business/management world wants to build for themselves. I’ll make a fortune cleaning it up.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#52
I don't know. My personal take is that low-code/no-code tools should have ushered in an era of homemade software, but it didn't. It's something I think about a lot, incidentally. We've had the technology to make software using a GUI rather than a text editor for a very long time, and yet programmers still use text editors, and programming in general hasn't really been all that democratized. At best, it's now possible to create a website without knowing how to code, but it usually isn't a particularly good one.

A simple explanation is that the devil is in the details when it comes to implementation. Edge cases and granular behavior are hard to capture except in granular snippets of code. I'm not convinced that LLMs necessarily solve this problem. Even if you are working with a theoretically quite competent LLM, there are still going to be instances where describing what you want is actually challenging, to the point where it would be easier if you just did it yourself. You could argue that this doesn't matter in the case of simple software, but I think we underestimate what people really expect out of something that's "simple", and I think we underestimate people's tendency to grow bored of old toys, especially if they don't work as expected.

If anything, my belief is that LLMs by themselves aren't necessarily going to make this a reality. You need an accessible and empowering UX/UI to go along with it. Otherwise, asking an LLM to build software for you probably won't be much of a fun experience aside from those who are AI enthusiasts foremost.

Side note, I have painful feelings about so many UX researchers I used to admire jumping on board the AI hype train so uncritically. I kind of get it, their job is to speculate on new possibilities a tech offers without getting too hung up on external complications. Still, I feel disillusioned. It seems that prior to all of this these same people were questioning our implicit assumptions with how we interact with computers in really interesting ways (in the same vein as Bret Victor). Now, their takes are starting to converge with that of the usual anonymous midwit AI enthusiast on Twitter who pivoted from crypto.

Put more bluntly, the idea that LLMs will usher in a golden age of people making simple software is kind of a boring speculative future, a speculative future shared and talked about by the most uninspired and boring people on Twitter.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#53
post #24

If I have learnt one thing working in software engineering, specifically on AI-enabled products empowering junior engineers, and using Copilot professionally, it’s that you need even more experience to detect the subtleties in the lack of the models understanding of your domain, your specific intent. If you don’t know exactly what you’re after, and use the LLM as a sparring partner to bounce your ideas off, you’re in…

>Depending on the way you phrase questions, ChatGPT will gleefully suggest you a wrong approach, just because it’s so intent on satisfying your whim instead of saying No when it would be appropriate.

Which is easily solved by using another agent that is told to be critical and find all flaws in the suggested approach.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#54

Unpopular opinion inbound: what will spark a barefoot developer revolution is not LLM auto-coding, its making spreadsheet software more easily extendable and FUN. By extendable, I mean doing things like generating and sending emails, and using plugins to integrate with external services. By fun, I mean non-enterprisey, something that one would WANT to engage in as a hobby and that a total novice can pick up and gradu…

Currently trying emacs (after years of VIM) and what amazes me is how easy it is to extend the system. I don't know if we can extends this to novice. But spreadsheet and form builder looks like the most viable candidate. Maybe extends it with modules like data providers (files, music, contacts, emails,...) and actions (open file, play audio, call, send email,...). But this require open standards and protocols and the industry is trying hard to move away from those.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#55

I don't know. My personal take is that low-code/no-code tools should have ushered in an era of homemade software, but it didn't. It's something I think about a lot, incidentally. We've had the technology to make software using a GUI rather than a text editor for a very long time, and yet programmers still use text editors, and programming in general hasn't really been all that democratized. At best, it's now possible…

> there are still going to be instances where describing what you want is actually challenging, to the point where it would be easier if you just did it yourself

Yeah exactly. I've seen meetings between engineers get into a level of technical specificity where I've had the thought "we are just coding in english now."

Even if you're able to communicate your intent with natural language rather than a "programming language," you still arrive at a level of concrete detail that is difficult or impossible to describe without some sort of standard technical shorthand or jargon. This is true whether the "listener" is an LLM, some other sophisticated machine interpreter, or just another person.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#56
post #53
post #24

If I have learnt one thing working in software engineering, specifically on AI-enabled products empowering junior engineers, and using Copilot professionally, it’s that you need even more experience to detect the subtleties in the lack of the models understanding of your domain, your specific intent. If you don’t know exactly what you’re after, and use the LLM as a sparring partner to bounce your ideas off, you’re in…

>Depending on the way you phrase questions, ChatGPT will gleefully suggest you a wrong approach, just because it’s so intent on satisfying your whim instead of saying No when it would be appropriate. Which is easily solved by using another agent that is told to be critical and find all flaws in the suggested approach.

Not likely.

Have you seen AI code review tools? They are just as bad as any other AI products - it has a similar chance of fixing a defect or introducing a new one.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#57

I don't know. My personal take is that low-code/no-code tools should have ushered in an era of homemade software, but it didn't. It's something I think about a lot, incidentally. We've had the technology to make software using a GUI rather than a text editor for a very long time, and yet programmers still use text editors, and programming in general hasn't really been all that democratized. At best, it's now possible…

> there are still going to be instances where describing what you want is actually challenging, to the point where it would be easier if you just did it yourself Yeah exactly. I've seen meetings between engineers get into a level of technical specificity where I've had the thought "we are just coding in english now." Even if you're able to communicate your intent with natural language rather than a "programming langu…

Lately, with all this talk of natural-language-as-programming-language, I've tried reflecting on my own code and seeing how I might convey the same intent, but in English.

It's made me realize that it's usually the rule that intent at least feels easier to convey through code rather than through natural language. This is especially true if I'm trying to perform some complex mathematical task that's geometric in nature. Put another way, it's probably easier to understand how poisson disc sampling works if you saw the code for it, vs if you read the actual paper, especially if the code had comments providing additional context for different blocks of code. Doesn't help that the paper uses complex mathematical terminology, whereas the code, at worst, might have very terse variable names

And yet, I think a better example might be found in markup languages like HTML. Trying to convey the layout of a webpage using ONLY natural language seems really hard compared to using a markup language.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the stuff in the first half sound great, but adding an llm dependency is a complete antithesis to local first and well crafted software. I don't really like the term barefoot developers, but local craftsman should own and understand the tools they work with and the code they write. Their tools should be local first as well.

It's not conceived as an LLM dependency, but really more similar to the way I currently use LLMs as an engineer: as a consultant. I don't think current models are up to that task on their own, certainly not for someone without significant programming knowledge - but the sense I got, especially as the talk touched on still needing access to a skilled dev for a while at least, was that the author also understands this.…

The thing is you can learn a lot with a bootable FreeBSD usb, an old PC and a copy of the "Absolute FreeBSD" or the equivalent for Linux. I strongly believe that anyone who is not willing to put in the time to learn those stuff won't be able to do anything custom with computers. Shortcut has been there for years now and most people haven't touch it. Many only learn a few actions that apps provide and are content. Their phone are mostly for the things they replace (flashlight, camera, landline, magazines, tv,..). Computing is not one of these. Even taking the time to properly learn Word and Excel is no longer a thing.

Anything LLM can do locally, you can do it better with another, less demanding tool. And what they help with, it would be faster to just learn how to do it.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#59
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kind of disagree. chatgpt will make something that looks much more like it should work than your copy-pasted code from stackoverflow. It looks like it does exactly what you want. It's just riddled with bugs. Major (invented an api out of whole cloth; it would sure be convenient if that api did exist tho!) or subtle (oh, this bash script will bedshit and even overwrite data if your paths have spaces.) Or it will hap…

You’re kind of saying some of what I am trying to so I’m not sure we disagree. I boil down the core problem described to being roughly: people lacking expertise to judge code advice critically are putting bad code they do not understand into places they shouldn’t. This is the problem that is not new. LLM’s are a variation on the problem because they have the downside of not allowing you to view for yourself the surro…

> The fact they are so convincing at it is a different, but definitely new and horrific problem on its own.

I tried one to help me get the syntax right for the config file for a program. It started by generating a config file for the latest version and not the old one I was using, but once I told it that, it fixed that convincingly and spit out a config file that looked like it was for my version.

However, the reason I asked for help was that the feature was very badly documented, and yet ChatGPT happily invented syntax for the thing I was having problems with. And every time I told it that it didn't look quite right, it confidently invented new syntax for the feature. Everything it made up looked pretty damn convincing, if I had designed the config file format I could have gone with either of those suggestions, but they were all wrong, as evidenced by the config file validator in the program.

At least Stack Overflow had comments and votes that helped you gauge the usefulness of the answer. These glorified toasters have neither.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#60
post #48

Unpopular opinion inbound: what will spark a barefoot developer revolution is not LLM auto-coding, its making spreadsheet software more easily extendable and FUN. By extendable, I mean doing things like generating and sending emails, and using plugins to integrate with external services. By fun, I mean non-enterprisey, something that one would WANT to engage in as a hobby and that a total novice can pick up and gradu…

what software would you nominate as central examples of fun? do you think there are people who want their fun to be easy fun instead of hard fun?

Just throwing it out there, but from what I've seen of it Airtable compares favourably with Excel for the "ad hoc database" use case.
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