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Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

maggieappleton.com

41–50 of 179 posts

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#41
post #24

If I have learnt one thing working in software engineering, specifically on AI-enabled products empowering junior engineers, and using Copilot professionally, it’s that you need even more experience to detect the subtleties in the lack of the models understanding of your domain, your specific intent. If you don’t know exactly what you’re after, and use the LLM as a sparring partner to bounce your ideas off, you’re in…

This is not really a new problem, the previous version being "idk, I copy pasted it from stack overflow." True expertise realized that the answer often lay buried in sub-comments and the top voted answer is not often the correct one. LLM's naturally do not realize any of this.

I kind of disagree.

chatgpt will make something that looks much more like it should work than your copy-pasted code from stackoverflow. It looks like it does exactly what you want. It's just riddled with bugs. Major (invented an api out of whole cloth; it would sure be convenient if that api did exist tho!) or subtle (oh, this bash script will bedshit and even overwrite data if your paths have spaces.) Or it will happily combine code across major api revisions of eg bootstrap.

I still use it all the time; I just think it makes already-expert users faster while being of much more limited use to people who are not yet experts. In the above case, after being told to make the paths space safe it did so correctly. You just had to know to do that...

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#42

Great talk, more for the new-developer than the cynical seasoned pro but I love the direction.

All the stuff in the first half sound great, but adding an llm dependency is a complete antithesis to local first and well crafted software. I don't really like the term barefoot developers, but local craftsman should own and understand the tools they work with and the code they write. Their tools should be local first as well.

It's not conceived as an LLM dependency, but really more similar to the way I currently use LLMs as an engineer: as a consultant. I don't think current models are up to that task on their own, certainly not for someone without significant programming knowledge - but the sense I got, especially as the talk touched on still needing access to a skilled dev for a while at least, was that the author also understands this. Too, in sketching out so broad a vision as this, I wouldn't necessarily expect any author to treat what's possible today as a hard limit, any more than anyone else working in tech does or should.

I also don't understand why you'd consider LLMs as a blocker to local-only. You can run a 7B model on a $600 refurbished M1 Mac mini today. It won't be the fastest or the cleverest, and you probably will need an hour or so from someone who knows how to set up Ollama and Open WebUI, but it is absolutely usable after that with no Internet connection at all - I have a Mac mini so configured on my desk right now, actually. Or for an order of magnitude more outlay, you can get a Studio capable of supporting multiple concurrent users with 70B models producing tokens faster than you can read them. Again, sure, it won't be GPT-4o, and it won't be up to the standard of the sorts of tools described in the talk - not this year, anyway. In 2026 or 2027, though? Again, this talk looks to a possible future, not just today. And with a setup based on open models running locally as I've described, there is the countervailing advantage that once you have it, you own it.

As for the term 'barefoot developer' itself - it's a cavil, I grant, but I still want to quibble, because as a child in rural Mississippi with an Apple IIc and a couple of books, I was a barefoot developer, writing my own programs to solve my own problems, and often enough going to play in the woods by the road cut when I got stuck. (It helped! These days I'm more likely to chase wasps with a camera, but it still helps, when I can force the time. For what it's worth, though, I do wear shoes these days.)

Now I'm what Amazon would call an L5, earning as highly as almost anyone in this generation of my family - and not for a lot of student debt, because I never went to college. Whatever I am as a professional, I am in large part because I've been discovering and developing my craft since my single-digit days - and was free to do so without my parents having to pay anyone a damned subscription, besides.

True, the technology has grown far away from the kind of locally and individually empowering model this talk describes, and that I recall from my own childhood and early career days - that proto-SPA I mentioned nearby, for example, was hosted on a machine that everyone who ever worked on it could physically touch without leaving the office we all shared. And this in 2011! It really has not been that long a time since a model very much like what this talk describes was actually present in reality.

I see no reason in principle why that can't be true again. Certainly I'm convinced that it should.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#43
With all due respect to the author, I take umbrage with the statement "They never end up in the terminal, because that is a huge jump in complexity, usability, and frustration from using something like Airtable or Notion."

Using the command line isn't more complex, it's differently complex. It's differently complex and writ large, schools make no effort to teach it.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#44
The way I would support local-first databases is to promote Sqlite db files as the replacement for CSV files, and so everytime you see CSV file support, ask customer service to ask their tech team about when they will support the Sqlite db export format.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#45
Sounds great, but this won't work out to the way the author imagines it. We have a very strong bias towards anything technical, but if you've ever worked outside the SWE field, you'll see that half of the people simply aren't interested in "thinking". They don't like or enjoy their jobs. They sure as hell aren't going to sit there and think, "how do I take this problem and break it down into a dozen/hundreds of small steps to create a small app that solves my problem?"

The majority of people are content with learning the bare minimum needed to get by and never having to learn anything new. Don't believe, the proof is self evident the moment you try to update a UI that requires users to do things differently than before.

And this is all fine, I've accepted it by now. It's the way it's always been and always will be. Still, these new tools will empower a relatively small percentage of the population to create amazing open source apps that will be used by a lot of people. The tools also very much empower pro-developers to build a lot more apps with less efforts than before, which I'm looking forward to.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#46

With all due respect to the author, I take umbrage with the statement "They never end up in the terminal, because that is a huge jump in complexity, usability, and frustration from using something like Airtable or Notion." Using the command line isn't more complex, it's differently complex. It's differently complex and writ large, schools make no effort to teach it.

The "huge jump in complexity, usability" refers to not being able to use a mouse, which a lot of people find intimidating for some reason.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#47
AI/ML is going to absolutely destroy the first generations of junior developers. They won’t get enough practice doing software development by themselves and won’t know enough to fix subtle bugs introduced by the code. It’s like using a graphing calculator in high school. Probably perfectly OK for a smart kid taking calc his senior year, but would absolutely be used as a crutch by struggling or lazy students in a pre-algebra class.

Right now AI is mostly controlled by mega corps abusing copyright laws because they can get away with it. I seriously doubt this is going to drastically change.

Basically, I don’t understand this authors cute, homely portrayal of AI.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#48

Unpopular opinion inbound: what will spark a barefoot developer revolution is not LLM auto-coding, its making spreadsheet software more easily extendable and FUN. By extendable, I mean doing things like generating and sending emails, and using plugins to integrate with external services. By fun, I mean non-enterprisey, something that one would WANT to engage in as a hobby and that a total novice can pick up and gradu…

what software would you nominate as central examples of fun? do you think there are people who want their fun to be easy fun instead of hard fun?

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#49
post #6

This is my dream to. It goes something like this: - Find any cool tool online, download it, use it locally. Your data is persisted to your own local machine and your own personal cloud. - Visit any website, download it as your own, modify it. Host it as your own and continue to add to it online. - Browser vendors implement user accounts & hosting into the browser, so anyone can make a working app locally with a littl…

Really like that. Just add easy versioning and some tags and we're good to go.

Re: Home-Cooked Software and Barefoot Developers

#50
post #24

If I have learnt one thing working in software engineering, specifically on AI-enabled products empowering junior engineers, and using Copilot professionally, it’s that you need even more experience to detect the subtleties in the lack of the models understanding of your domain, your specific intent. If you don’t know exactly what you’re after, and use the LLM as a sparring partner to bounce your ideas off, you’re in…

> just because it’s so intent on satisfying your whim instead of saying No This really, really, really needs to be fixed. It's probably the most irritating (and potentially risky) part of the whole ecosystem. Nothing more infuriating than being give code that not only doesn't work, but upon the most casual inspection, couldn't possibly work -- especially when it's done it four or five times in a row, each time assuri…

This problem will be solved with a vengeance when the next OpenAI model is released, because it will incorporate Stackoverflow content[1].

[1] https://www.wired.com/story/stack-overflow-will-charge-ai-gi...

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