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It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

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Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#131

Post by mihaaly »

switch007 wrote: post #52
mihaaly wrote: post #29

Concerning NHS I'd be extatic if they listened to my specific and narrow problem before writing paperwork that they do not read later and I have to tell again someone else in that 15 minutes they allocate for me, that would be a first step in my view towards the dreamland of holistic approaches.

You took the words out of my mouth. Mental health on the NHS has more or less collapsed under its own weight. All this time limitation, ignoring what you say, forgetting to note important details, pretending at each appointment that there is no history etc is just systemic refusal/inability to offer treatment at the end of the day (not just mental health).

My increasing feeling is that the patients' purpose is to provide input for paperwork that gives exuse to write payslips. The patients are for the system, not the other way around. The patients are wrapped around (bounced around, jumped through hoops, etc) the system's needs, not the system is formed around the needs of the patients. All is organized so the system's resources can be used the most optimal way (all hail the St. Key Performance Indicator!). Meanwhile if some curing happens, that's an acceptable byproduct.

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#132

Post by Spod_Gaju »

plonk wrote: post #129
Spod_Gaju wrote: post #112

I am the OP. First, I am glad this post has gotten so much attention and traction. But what if I told you I cured my mental illness at 58 years old, a serious case of Bipolar Disorder Schizoaffective Type that had me on Disability and in and out of psychiatric hospitals since I was in my early 30's? What if I told you it was more than holistic but it was holistic thinking that helped me cure my disorder. Will you all…

Doesn't bipolar often get better by itself after 50? That happened to family members and they certainly weren't trying to improve their lifestyle.

=^|

No. I do not want to say never, but without intervention it is rare.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8226928/

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#133

Post by tredigi »

can16358p wrote: post #25

I strongly believe we don't have "mental health problems", yet we have a global style of living in "modern society" that is inherently incompatible with the way we evolved: e.g. office-based daily tasks instead of walking and hunting, foods fabricated to stimulate us instead of what we could find in nature, high buildings and cities with sound/light/air pollution instead of a calm, clean nature, always trying to "opt…

You may be over-romanticizing the hunter-gatherer times. It wasnt all just a nice summer evening where people did a nice walk in the forest after chilling at the beach. Life was rough, often it was cold and rainy, people were hungry and every little injury could easily mean a horrible death. Constantly worrying how to fill your stomach without getting killed by wolves or a tiger (or a rival tribe) or breaking your foot, or some deity being unhappy with you and sending a thunderstorm. Can't just pop a pill when you have pains or can't sleep.

True, mental health likely wasn't much of an issue. But the other issues you got in exchange...

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#134

Post by tredigi »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #84
konschubert wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: I have worried about emails while swimming.

Antithesis: I have worried about swimming while emailing.

I've worried about not emailing!

And I'm not even swimming.

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#135

Post by kombookcha »

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #109
kombookcha wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very interesting perspective, thank you. If you don't mind me asking, do you have a sense of why this feels necessary in psych - is it deference to some preferred school of thought that needs to sign off on your work, or is it more that you need to signal that you know lots of theory? How did you go about it, when they made you put in a theory chapter? What would happen if you turned in some psych work that…

> What would happen if you turned in some psych work that was robust in its method, but without explicit references to theory? It would get rejected. I actually replicated a really interesting negative finding (around optimism and health) multiple times with a good design, and couldn't get it published as I didn't have an explanation for why this happened (i do now, but have been in the private sector for well over a…

That sounds tough to work in. Do people ever cross-pollinate between theoretical positions and use eachothers data without the competing theory attached, or are they completely siloed off?

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#136

Post by switch007 »

mihaaly wrote: post #131
switch007 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You took the words out of my mouth. Mental health on the NHS has more or less collapsed under its own weight. All this time limitation, ignoring what you say, forgetting to note important details, pretending at each appointment that there is no history etc is just systemic refusal/inability to offer treatment at the end of the day (not just mental health).

My increasing feeling is that the patients' purpose is to provide input for paperwork that gives exuse to write payslips. The patients are for the system, not the other way around. The patients are wrapped around (bounced around, jumped through hoops, etc) the system's needs, not the system is formed around the needs of the patients. All is organized so the system's resources can be used the most optimal way (all hai…

I can definitely appreciate that conclusion. We are told to fill in forms, answer questionnaires, attend appointments, wait for callbacks, sign up for waiting lists, read websites, phone these numbers, search for alternative private options... just keeping you busy and distracted. They loved using COVID as an excuse to abolish the concept of face-to-face anything, to keep you even more arms length.

I literally said one of my issues is isolation, lack of connections etc and they said "ok we can offer you a phone appointment only". I know it's due to shortages but it was the complete lack of acknowledgement of the situation.

A lot of people are definitely getting paid just to manage applications and lists and callbacks and note typing etc without any care being delivered. Just enough to CYA if a relative blames them for anything that happens

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#137

Post by Spod_Gaju »

NotGMan wrote: post #63

The son of Roblox CEO had serious mental issues which were cured by going on a low carb diet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWh_ofvziE Diet is extremely underrated, if not probably one of the main causes of mental illness (aside from severe chronic life stress). You can also check Chris Palmer on twitter.

I’m responding to you here because they flagged another post that you made a comment on. It was about the autoimmune diseases. I have no idea why they flagged that post are there than I wrote the article and I posted it as well.

It was interesting to read the feedback with one person saying that because I am not a doctor. I can’t learn anything.

And I appreciate what you’re saying here about mental illness because what you’re saying is true. If you go to my Substack, I’m going to talk more about how I use my genetics to discover the cause of my mental illness and how I’m using food to cure it as well as all the other disorders that came along with my mental illness.

People have a hard time with creative intelligence and unlearning dogma that’s been taught to them for years. I was hoping in hacker news people would be more open-minded but now I’m seeing that’s not the case.

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#138

Post by xboxnolifes »

smokel wrote: post #71
benterix wrote: post #49

Religion would like to have a word with you. Yes, I'm very serious here. Apart from crooks, fanatics and other vocal minorities, the religious people I met have several advantages. One, more mundane, is a sense of community which works best in smaller groups. Second, a sense of purpose in life and a kind of reference point. Third, when a darker period comes, a source of strength to go through it.

It is very unfortunate that religion associated itself with miracles a lot, which are perfectly incompatible with science. It turns out to be pretty hard to come up with a religion that has your listed advantages, and which does not break down under the critical views of science. Ironically, the “God” concept is in the clear, but the bible needs a serious overhaul to be trustworthy again.

> It is very unfortunate that religion associated itself with miracles a lot, which are perfectly incompatible with science.

And yet, there are religious scientists. Just like you can separate your work and personal life, you can separate your religious/spiritual/mental beliefs from your rest of self. You don't need to "prove" the religion to be true for it to be useful.

You know what they say about models and their correctness?

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#139

Post by NotGMan »

Spod_Gaju wrote: post #137
NotGMan wrote: post #63

The son of Roblox CEO had serious mental issues which were cured by going on a low carb diet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWh_ofvziE Diet is extremely underrated, if not probably one of the main causes of mental illness (aside from severe chronic life stress). You can also check Chris Palmer on twitter.

I’m responding to you here because they flagged another post that you made a comment on. It was about the autoimmune diseases. I have no idea why they flagged that post are there than I wrote the article and I posted it as well. It was interesting to read the feedback with one person saying that because I am not a doctor. I can’t learn anything. And I appreciate what you’re saying here about mental illness because wh…

Thanks :)

>> I was hoping in hacker news people would be more open-minded but now I’m seeing that’s not the case.

Yes this was a bitter pill to swallow for me also: hackers would be open minded right? It's exactly the opposite: many comments that I do like this get downvoted very often heh...more like Sheep News than Hacker News :)

But I'm totaly used to it now, though my opinion that "programmers are be smart and wise people" now doesn't have the "wise" part in it anymore...

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#140

Post by NotGMan »

smokel wrote: post #130
NotGMan wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Yes, but those anecdotes don't prove much, do they? Are you sure? Because it's exactly REAL WORLD N=1 examples that clearly demonstrate that for some people these diets are akin to magic. How can you dismiss REAL WORLD EXAMPLES? Yes, they don't work for everyone: but so now people shouldn't try them just because some people don't get better on them? What kind of logic is that? Real world examples are all that matt…

I find that I have to repeat myself. You seem to be using a kind of reasoning that I don't think is very productive. Are you aware of this? I could spend some time explaining where I think you go off the rails, but I'm afraid you prefer trolling over learning. Please let me know if I'm mistaken, and I'd be happy to continue the conversation.

Why are real world examples "counterproductive"? Do you not see that some people are healed by this?

What is hard to understand about real world people healing?

So because in a study of eg 200 people 170 don't improve at all but 30 do this now obviously means that on average the thing studied doesn't work: so the study concludes "X doesn't work" even thought 30 people got completely cured.

So you'd now prefer for no-one to get cured because "on average" treatment X doesn't work. Perhaps your reasoning is not productive?

It's really simple: these things work for SOME people: should they not have tried this and instead remain ill?

A human life is not the average + confidence interval in a study: humans are different, an individual is a VERY REAL N=1, not "the average study participant".

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