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Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

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Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#71

Post by nathan_long »

ralfd wrote: post #63
nitrogen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who argue that phones are computers are arguing the nature of a thing is its identity. It seems you are arguing that the intent of a thing is its identity. Using your argument, if I wrap my desktop PC in a cardboard box with holes for air inlet, air exhaust, and the power cable, and call it a heater, it's no longer a computer, despite having all the bits inside that a computer would have. I'd much rather decid…

You contradict yourself a little bit. If you decide your PC is a heater, well, then it is one! It is commercially unviable to sell it to someone third as that, but if you managed that feat, it would be a bit strange if this person then came to you: "You sold me this electric heater, but I looked into it and it is warmed by an especially hot Intel CPU. So I decided it is a PC and despite you are being in the heater-se…

>> I want you to not void my warranty when I reflash the firmware

That's a different issue. I support the manufacturer saying "we won't guarantee our computer-as-heater will work if you change the software."

What I don't support is "we have have made it legally/physically/cryptographically impossible for you to use the thing you bought however you want to."

If I sell you a watermelon, I'll guarantee its freshness. I'll not guarantee its fitness as a boat anchor, but if you want to try that, go right ahead.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#72

Post by Allaun »

DrJokepu wrote: post #46
brudgers wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's devices are ARM (that's how ARM works, by licensing designs rather than fabricating chips like Intel).

Implementation detail. Apple sells iPhones, not ARM-based phones. They don't mention "ARM" anywhere in iPhone marketing materials.

They don't have to. It is what it is. The Droid isn't stated as being a Arm Cortex A8 phone. But that's exactly what it is and it's related to what they are stating in the article.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#74

Post by brudgers »

mjg59 wrote: post #66

The quotations say nothing of the sort. A vendor could provide a dual-boot device providing they have an Android bootloader signed with Microsoft's signing key, which is a service that Microsoft will be providing. A more open question is whether any of the existing Linux vendors will be doing this. Fedora is willing to use Microsoft's signing service for x86 because users will be able to disable the feature or enrol…

>"A more open question is whether any of the existing Linux vendors will be doing this."

The Market Economics Fairy predicts that they will not given the limited number of people who are interested in dual booting a tablet and the diversity of device configurations likely to be manufactured.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#76

Post by tehwalrus »

brudgers wrote: post #27
bni wrote: post #10

From the article: "Apple has long prevented dual booting to Linux" This is not true, I have Ubuntu on my MacBook Pro.

The article is about ARM devices, not x86.

It's not true in the same way about apple's ARM devices either. Microsoft's actions control the hardware's boot code, which (I am assuming) cannot be flashed easily as it's not generic between devices. Apple's control over iPhones is bypass-able via jailbreaking (I've seen iPhones that dual boot android, which wouldn't be possible with a similar restriction.)

Apple make this stuff hard and fiddly (and, on iOS devices, mildly dangerous). Microsoft are making it impossible, if I've understood correctly.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#77

Post by Hoff »

Please take a moment to reflect on the current situation before launching the "corporate overlord" and related snark.

Many existing customers effectively do not own what they already have; their systems have been infested with malware and crapplications.

Locked-down bootstraps are the least-bad of a very bad lot of approaches available for dealing with the changes in the user base, and with the increasingly less-experienced and less-DIY users for modern systems.

Security attacks are only getting more subtle, complex and sophisticated. The Microsoft Terminal Server-derived Microsoft code-signing digital certificates is a recent example of the complexity of the environment.

How do you deal with these changes in attacks and with the changes in the user base otherwise, given the numbers of systems out there, and the changes in the knowledge and experience of the user base?

Do any of us like these locked-down bootstraps? Emphatically, no. So figure out another way to ensure this security, get yourself patent or three (and yes, software patents are issued for far too many years) and get yourself rich by solving this problem.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#78

Post by recoiledsnake »

mtgx wrote: post #31

I think the real issue with this is that it stops manufacturers from bundling Windows RT with Android. Take Asus for example. They've just made their "big" announcement which everyone thought it would be a dual-booting Windows RT/Android machine, and it turns out it's just Windows with the Bluestacks program that can make it run Android apps inside Windows. I find that pretty silly, and I don't see a real reason why…

>I think the real issue with this is that it stops manufacturers from bundling Windows RT with Android. Take Asus for example. They've just made their "big" announcement which everyone thought it would be a dual-booting Windows RT/Android machine, and it turns out it's just Windows with the Bluestacks program that can make it run Android apps inside Windows.

Everyone thought something that everyone else knew wouldn't happen from about 6 months? That article you submitted is from January.

Also, do you have any references to everyone thinking Asus's big announcement will be an Windows RT/Android hybrid?

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#79

Post by protomyth »

cryptoz wrote: post #53
protomyth wrote: post #52

I really don't care about the restrictions on tablets. I figure every OS will have a tablet or two available. What really bothers me is that ARM-based laptops come under this crud. I have really wanted a modern day replacement for the Psion. Something that gets great battery life and has a decent keyboard. I also want to run a BSD (probably Open), so that is really going to make it a pain.

What's the difference between tablets and laptops? I don't see any differences when it comes to the ability to dual boot. The ASUS Transformer line has been around for a while now, showing that the line between tablet and laptop is blurring. Also, Canonical/Ubuntu seems to be gunning for tablet market share in the future. Do you think they'll have their own hardware? I don't see any reason to separate out tablets and…

Because I see tablets as a device that really needs software that's been design for it. It a package that I buy to have it work out of the box. Tablets aren't laptops without a keyboard, they are their own thing.

Laptops have a long tradition of multiple OSes giving a pretty good experience and being open to multiple OSes.

Re: Microsoft Bans Linux/Android Dual-Booting on Windows 8 ARM Devices

#80

Post by recoiledsnake »

tehwalrus wrote: post #76
brudgers wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is about ARM devices, not x86.

It's not true in the same way about apple's ARM devices either. Microsoft's actions control the hardware's boot code, which (I am assuming) cannot be flashed easily as it's not generic between devices. Apple's control over iPhones is bypass-able via jailbreaking (I've seen iPhones that dual boot android, which wouldn't be possible with a similar restriction.) Apple make this stuff hard and fiddly (and, on iOS devices…

>Apple's control over iPhones is bypass-able via jailbreaking (I've seen iPhones that dual boot android, which wouldn't be possible with a similar restriction.)

Is there really a way to install Android on iPhone 4/4S or the iPad?

Then why aren't a whole bunch of people doing it? Because no one really cares about dual booting a personal device and the associated headaches with keeping things in sync?

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