Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#791

Post by refulgentis » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 8:19 PM UTC

nsguy wrote: post #787

refulgentis wrote: post #785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sorry but you are still avoiding my topic. Is or isn't Israel singled out by the UN? Honestly, I haven't read more than a couple sentences of these obsessive rants in 3 comments, just enough to check what you've learned about the UN so far. This isn't behavior I expect to see on HN, and after reviewing the thread, it looks like its a consistent issue, across multiple threads: you ask questions addressed long ag…

I am coming to this from an emotional point for sure. And ranting. This is what our discussion looks like from my perspective. > you have to be of a very specific mindset to see message after message about the evil UN and not say, "uh, did we go off the rails somewhere?" Me: "We can measure "unjustly singled out"" + China and the Uyghurs is one example we can look at. > The China claims are straight up lies False. Th…

I mean, you said it yourself, you found the UN criticizing Uyghurs. Then, we can also find Uyghurs have bombed and missiled Beijing. You lied, sorry.

Then you went off on me, a Zionist, about how I'm yelling apartheid(?).

Then you went off about how the security council (with China on it??) is the real measure.

Then you went off on I never answered if I thought UN was biased against Israel compared to China (???) We can start again from there if your interest here is curiosity. Is it?

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#792

Post by nsguy » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 8:28 PM UTC

refulgentis wrote: post #791

nsguy wrote: post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am coming to this from an emotional point for sure. And ranting. This is what our discussion looks like from my perspective. > you have to be of a very specific mindset to see message after message about the evil UN and not say, "uh, did we go off the rails somewhere?" Me: "We can measure "unjustly singled out"" + China and the Uyghurs is one example we can look at. > The China claims are straight up lies False. Th…

I mean, you said it yourself, you found the UN criticizing Uyghurs. Then, we can also find Uyghurs have bombed and missiled Beijing. You lied, sorry. Then you went off on me, a Zionist, about how I'm yelling apartheid(?). Then you went off about how the security council (with China on it??) is the real measure. Then you went off on I never answered if I thought UN was biased against Israel compared to China (???) We…

I just want to apologize for part of the tone of my response.

I don't think we're gonna get anywhere here otherwise.

[EDIT: I'll take 50% of the blame for this going sideways.]

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#793

Post by refulgentis » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 10:21 PM UTC

nsguy wrote: post #792

refulgentis wrote: post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you said it yourself, you found the UN criticizing Uyghurs. Then, we can also find Uyghurs have bombed and missiled Beijing. You lied, sorry. Then you went off on me, a Zionist, about how I'm yelling apartheid(?). Then you went off about how the security council (with China on it??) is the real measure. Then you went off on I never answered if I thought UN was biased against Israel compared to China (???) We…

I just want to apologize for part of the tone of my response. I don't think we're gonna get anywhere here otherwise. [EDIT: I'll take 50% of the blame for this going sideways.]

Cheers, you are a better man than I (I also apologize but you got there first and meant it, I wouldn't have)

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#794

Post by nsguy » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 7:09 PM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #766

nsguy wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying they could not vote in the US which is what the discussion is about. The Palestinians also had elections. I don't think what people are asking Israel to do here is to let the Palestinians have elections while being occupied? The total physical occupation of Germany lasted 11 years. The final status of Germany was only determined in 1990 in the 2+4 agreement. That's a 45 year period. The US still has bases…

> I don't think what people are asking Israel to do here is to let the Palestinians have elections while being occupied? It's incredible how persistently you miss the point. What people are asking Israel to do is let Palestinians have a say in their own affairs. That can be done _either_ by letting the Palestinian government meaningfully control Palestine (as the West German government did relatively soon after the w…

I don't think I missed any of your points.

I'm being called a liar for pointing out that in general people living in occupied territories do not have the rights of the citizens of the occupier, which is the exact situation here, and for which Israel is labelled as an "Apartheid State", since there's no Apartheid in Israel proper, only supposedly in said occupied territories.

I think you're factually wrong on your "What people are asking" statement. Different people are asking different things. However, you can totally ask that question as an individual and we can discuss it.

Palestinians do have a say in their own affairs. But you're saying "letting the Palestinian government meaningfully control Palestine". When you say Palestine do you mean the west bank? Would you agree that in Gaza Israeli did let the Palestinians "meaningfully control Gaza"? What was the outcome of that? What do you propose can be done differently in the west bank for example? What level of say/control do you feel would balance Israel's security needs with the Palestinian's need to have a say/meaningful control? Let's talk specifics.

By the way, I'm totally not an expert in post WW-II Germany, I don't really know if we can apply the same methods or not: https://www.historyandpolicy.org/policy-papers/papers/german...

There was West Germany and East Germany. There was "denazification" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification (e.g. promoting of Nazi ideas had a death penalty under the occupation, do you think that'll fly with Israel vs. Palestinians vs. the world?). There were war crime trials for top level Nazis.

EDIT: It's also worth mentioning that when the west bank was occupied by Israel in 1967 it was considered to be part of Jordan and Jordan didn't give up that claim until their peace agreement with Israel. But if your point is that Israel should have at that point given the people living in this area a measure of autonomy to run most aspects of their lives I think I can agree. There was definitely some self governing, e.g. at the city level. I think the demand was of Israel to return this to Jordan at that point in time and Israel refused since it meant there would be large Arab armies 10 minute tank drive from Tel-Aviv. (e.g.). I wasn't around in 1967 and I haven't studied that period in detail.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#795

Post by miguelazo » Sun, Jun 09, 2024, 8:44 PM UTC

a_dabbler wrote: post #759

CommanderData wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point they have a wiki or discord somewhere where they share talking points between each other. Someone from their group is clearly thinking ahead and automating all of them out of a job :)

They basically have that, it's called Act.IL where they give the users the content and talking points to distribute.

James Bamford has written extensively on this. Pathetic that the FBI doesn’t arrest any of them as acting as unregistered foreign agents, but not surprising given the cowardice of DC officials in the face of AIPAC.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#796

Post by stoorafa » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 2:01 AM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #501

stoorafa wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that designation as a separate state, complaining that they can't vote in Israeli elections is like complaining that Canadians can't vote in US elections. I don’t remember the US ever occupying Canada. Not like that at all, and this is a clearly biased take even considering this line on its own.

> > Given that designation as a separate state, complaining that they can't vote in Israeli elections is like complaining that Canadians can't vote in US elections. > I don’t remember the US ever occupying Canada. I'm confused by this. Normally under international law, it is illegal to allow people in occupied territory to vote or otherwise integrate them into civil government. Israel has even gotten criticized by th…

I’m not sure why you’re confused.

An occupying force holding its own elections in an occupied place is indeed illegal (your reference was about Israeli people holding elections in the Golan heights).

Comparing an _occupied_ people’s attempt to hold elections in the occupied place (Palestinian people in Palestine) to two separate non-occupied states (USA and Canada) is nonsense.

Hope that helps.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#797

Post by rendall » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 5:28 AM UTC

nsguy wrote: post #120

runarberg wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

I really appreciate the attempt here, but these people are convinced and refuse to yield to logical questions, e.g. What is the evidence for a genocide? Gaza Ministry of Health says there is a genocide. You mean Hamas? The people who organized and filmed themselves murdering and kidnapping women, old people and children. Why do they have credibility? The UN also says there is a genocide. The UN cites Hamas. The BBC, NYT, HRW... ...also cite Hamas. It's Hamas all the way down. Well, it's the best source we have. Israel is biased, and committing genocide...

On and on. For anyone able to absorb new information, I created a YouTube playlist on this. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLiJgBiONK7dILxA1zuIKJ_89e...

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#798

Post by defrost » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 5:35 AM UTC

wordofx wrote: post #762

defrost wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe we've already established that your opinion doesn't align with the opinions of others. > But let’s Please don't speak for me, or for others when expressing your opinion. > It’s fun to ignore what’s happening elsewhere Perhaps for you but again, please don't speak for myself or for others.

I can speak and you and others when it’s clear you’re spreading propaganda.

Many would look at your comments and consider that you're spreading propaganda.

All that I've spread in my comments above (do please scroll back and check) is the message that opinions are divided.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#799

Post by School-Cotton » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 1:29 PM UTC

nsguy wrote: post #794

School-Cotton wrote: post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think what people are asking Israel to do here is to let the Palestinians have elections while being occupied? It's incredible how persistently you miss the point. What people are asking Israel to do is let Palestinians have a say in their own affairs. That can be done _either_ by letting the Palestinian government meaningfully control Palestine (as the West German government did relatively soon after the w…

I don't think I missed any of your points. I'm being called a liar for pointing out that in general people living in occupied territories do not have the rights of the citizens of the occupier, which is the exact situation here, and for which Israel is labelled as an "Apartheid State", since there's no Apartheid in Israel proper, only supposedly in said occupied territories. I think you're factually wrong on your "Wh…

> Would you agree that in Gaza Israeli did let the Palestinians "meaningfully control Gaza"?

No.

> What was the outcome of that?

Impossible to say because it has never happened.

Re: Israel reportedly used fake social accounts to garner support from US lawmakers

#800

Post by racional » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 8:41 PM UTC

nsguy wrote: post #788

racional wrote: post #779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like to appear to be dismissive of longer posts by picking out just one aspect of them and ignoring everything else that was said; but in this case there's one assertion you're making which stands categorically above all others: You're still put on trial ... because you're Jewish. If what you mean here is the fact that the State of Israel is often subject to criticism for both for its founding ideology and th…

We're unlikely to have a productive discussion anyways because we're so far apart and this is not a good medium to handle something like this topic. People that are entrenched in certain positions don't seem to want to give them up. However I'm not claiming all criticism on Israel is because "the people behind this project are of Jewish ancestry". But certainly antisemitism plays a role. It plays a role in Arab views…

Fair enough in regard to strong critiques.

I still don't think the original statement I jumped in at ("Palestinians never had a country so that couldn't have been stolen from them") stands on its own, or helps explain the current situation.

Of course they had a country; and hence would not recognize domination by a foreign population -- unless imposed by overwhelming force. The original Zionists were keenly aware of this fact, which is why it has become one of guiding tenants in nearly major strategic decisions Israel has made since.