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The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

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Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#251

Post by mattgreenrocks »

_yb2s wrote: post #92
ianbicking wrote: post #4

There's definitely been a move to demand individuals be good at everything... old stereotypes of the nerd brought a lot of negatives, but they were also apologetic, acknowledging the trade off, that paying attention deeply to one thing does lead to being worse at other things. The exact stereotype differed by domain... the performer who is a diva, the self destructive author, the manic artist... each with a hint of n…

Caring about something deeply above external motivations, especially external validation is by itself neurodivergent. At the very least, you have to be highly introverted, which is rare.

I want to check that I’m parsing this correctly.

Caring about something beyond a typical amount for intrinsic reasons is a neurodivergent marker?

Is this really the HN I grew up with?

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#252

Post by hnbad »

antisthenes wrote: post #207
walt_grata wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I duno on some of that. Until I was about 39 I was a "weird nerd" and then my wife (Dr of special education) finally convinced me to talk to a Dr and get get tested for autism. Turns out I'm ASD 1, would have been Asperger's in the past. Autism has a very wide range of ways it shows itself.

> my wife (Dr of special education) finally convinced me to talk to a Dr and get get tested for autism. Turns out I'm ASD 1, would have been Asperger's in the past. Can I ask candidly, what did you gain from knowing this? Presumably this didn't have much effect on you, since you seem to be fairly successful - finding a partner and getting married and presumably also having a decent job. Seems kind of like a vanity va…

It can help reframe personal experiences and past struggles for one, but it can also help gain access to support that isn't available if you're just a "weird nerd". It can also serve to legitimize your struggles to people who think you just need to "stop being so lazy" at whatever you genuinely struggle with by being able to point at a diagnosis.

Yeah, the benefits are a mixed bag and subjective but that's why we should normalize self-dx rather than insisting people have to get a medical opinion to be "validated".

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#253

Post by magicalist »

kylebenzle wrote: post #146
parineum wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't use this word specifically but this whole conversation has the underlying prior of the "everything is a spectrum" mindset. In that context, everyone is neurodivergence because, afterall it's a spectrum we're all on and nobody is going to be deadest average. At some point we have to define at what point these spectrums become clinical. The kind of language you see in the DSM for stuff like this is "does it…

Autism is a result of neurons failing to "trim" or being over-connected. Being "on the spectrum" refers to the degree of above average physical over-connection of neurons. The opposite, when neurons fail to connect or lose too many connections is called schizophrenia. People that are between the two, the vast majority of people, are not said to be either autistic or schizophrenic (you can't be both at the same time b…

> not said to be either autistic or schizophrenic (you can't be both at the same time

I've never heard this before and a quick search can't find any evidence of it.

The "over-connected" suggestion did pull up studies like this[1], but that's one effect of one set of genes sometimes associated with autism, and, of course, it was in mice.

I'd definitely like to learn more, but at first impression, a spectrum with autism and schizophrenia at opposite ends seems way too simple a model for human brains.

[1] https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/in-autism-too-many-brain-con...

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#254

Post by red_admiral »

ianbicking wrote: post #4

There's definitely been a move to demand individuals be good at everything... old stereotypes of the nerd brought a lot of negatives, but they were also apologetic, acknowledging the trade off, that paying attention deeply to one thing does lead to being worse at other things. The exact stereotype differed by domain... the performer who is a diva, the self destructive author, the manic artist... each with a hint of n…

I think part of the problem with "autistic" is that, although there is an official diagnostic protocol for it, it's far from clear whether that cleaves reality at the joints, as the philosophers say. It's also still mostly an open question if and how autism in women might present differently from in men.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#255

Post by megadal »

woopwoop wrote: post #56
megadal wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the suggestion though. It's that a lot of high performers in STEM tend to be "Weird Nerds" and by selecting against that type, you alienate a large number of potentially great researchers. Not selecting against weird nerds doesn't mean selecting against "socially well-adjusted Nerds". In fact, the article says that a person can in fact be exceptional at politic and science, despite their tenets being antit…

It says there is a "strong anti-correlation" between being a weird nerd and being pleasant to be around socially. This may be true, but it is not my experience that there is a strong anti-correlation between being an exceptional mathematician and being pleasant to be around socially. Despite the stereotype, in my experience the best mathematicians are not the ones who stare at their shoes when you talk to them.

From the article:

> There is a strong anti-correlation between these interests (that of course does not mean there is no one who is good at both.)

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#256

Post by eikenberry »

fragmede wrote: post #188
eikenberry wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And like any other skill some people are more gifted in learning that skill than others. Anyone can learn to paint, but not everyone is going to be a Monet or a Rembrandt.

Everyone doesn't need to be a Monet, they just have to be able to paint their name on a poster without embarrassing themselves and putting down others.

Everyone can paint their name, that is a 0 skill exercise. And I wasn't saying everyone needs to be a Monet, more that these are high ceiling skills you are talking about and there is a lot more variety than is given credit.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#257

Post by giantg2 »

Gigachad wrote: post #198
giantg2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASD has different levels of diagnosis. I've been told by a therapist specializing in ASD that there are a lot of diagnosed and undiagnosed ASD workers in tech. It's very possible the only reason they are "full blown clinically diagnosed" is because they haven't been tested.

At this point we could diagnose basically everyone on the planet with some flavour of neurodivergence. I’m sure there’s one that makes people good at sales, one that makes people ruthless CEOs, one that makes people programmers, etc. But I just don’t see the point of diagnosing people with things unless it causes some kind of actual disability and dysfunction.

No, you can't diagnose most people. Yes, the diagnosis generally requires there to be disabilities related to it. Otherwise it doesn't meet the criteria.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#258

Post by ergonaught »

sneed_chucker wrote: post #133
sctb wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being married and gainfully employed and able to build and maintain relationships as well as hold conversations with strangers when necessary can come at an exceptionally high cost for neurodivergent people in the form of masking (like a kind of mental tech debt). Instead of overt social difficulty, this might present itself as anxiety, depression, and suicidality—those conditions are worthy of medicalization IMO.

I agree with what you're saying, but also - everyone has problems. Is anyone truly normal or neurotypical? Why do some people's problems get the validation of the medical system and others don't? (These are non-rhetorical questions, I'm really not sure about the answers to them myself)

> Is anyone truly normal or neurotypical

Yes. I get that your questions appear to be sincere and genuine, but, yes. Relative to the actual, demonstrable, neurological differences in connectivity and so forth in the “neurodivergent” brain, the overwhelming majority of people are “normal”. Relative to the actual lived experience of “neurodivergents”, the overwhelming majority of people are “normal”.

These kinds of questions are asked by people who simply don’t understand the enormity of the difference.

Much like people who don’t have aphantasia speaking to people who do. And so forth.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#259

Post by charlieyu1 »

woopwoop wrote: post #36

I've met a handful of people who have won at least one of the top prizes in mathematics, i.e. a Fields medal, Abel prize, or Wolf Prize. I would describe none of them as "weird nerds", and I don't think any of them are autistic. I chafe pretty hard at the suggestion here that one has to be socially ill-adjusted to advance scientific knowledge at the highest level.

And that’s the problem. How many weird nerds were driven out because they aren’t playing the academia game well?

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#260

Post by charlieyu1 »

booleandilemma wrote: post #239

I wonder, with tools like ChatGPT available, how much more time before society feels they don't need to put up with the weird nerd any longer? I'm something of a weird nerd myself, and though I haven't tried it, I'm sure ChatGPT could spit out some of the most complicated code I've written and make it look easy.

I’d say ChatGPT is helping me writing a lot of things that I won’t bother but apparently you need it to play the social game
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