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Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

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201–210 of 231 posts

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#201

As you consider the decision to let them go, consider the impact on other people in your work place too. Other developers notice someone like that underperforming and getting overpaid, and it can hurt the good climate you aim for. It may feel bad to fire them, but it may be worse to keep them.

If I were working on that team, I wouldn’t like the company firing the senior dev. If they keep them, and train them, that would reinforce the idea that the company is taking care of its employees. That’s nice.

I hate this rat race of being a performant engineer. The moment your performance declines, your managers will let you know and you’re under the radar now.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#203

You fucked up, but most likely you are playing with vc money so who gives a fuck? Pay him, keep him. Chances are you will fold in a year or two so at least you make someones life a bit better for a while. You not saving the world or anything like that, so just syphoon as much of the idiots vcs moneys to normal people lives. That is the goal with start ups right?

Surprises me this is not the top voted answer. After years in this industry, I have zero empathy for startups and VCs, and all the empathy of the world for employees. Keep him.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#204
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the sneaking suspicion that you don't actually do this shit. ChatGPT isn't an expert coder sitting by your side. It's not even remotely close. Go ahead and get ChatGPT to walk you through how to implement even a non-novel CFD analysis that won't get you laughed out of the room. Get it to help you port an Ada Ravenscar runtime to an exotic (or even a not-so-exotic) processor. Try and have it generate non-trivial…

No need to get so upset ? It is like if I say that reading a book will help you learn faster about a domain than if you have to discover all by yourself. Yes self-learning is better, but it takes a much longer period of time, whereas if you have a tutor, then it saves lot of time (and companies don't often have such resources, which is where AI and books fill the gap). I strongly believe that LLMs are a serious helpi…

I'm not so much upset as I am flabbergasted.

Reading the documentation is basically never the hard part. If it's where most of your work is going, you're not doing hard work. Gemini 1.5-Pro may be able to summarize documentation, but it's what isn't there that hurts you. It may make for a helpful reference, but that wasn't the initial claim. The claim was that "domain-specific knowledge can be solved with a $20 ChatGPT subscription", and being frank, that's just stupid. The difference between a smart person and a domain expert is orders of magnitude more than an LLM is able to paper over.

It's a struggle to replace even the most trivial paper pushing with an LLM. I'm sure we'll find something one day, but it's going to be doing a hell of a lot more than an LLM.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contract work is a lot more common in Europe for a reason

I don't think I ever realized that's why there are so many discussions of "employment contracts" here on HN (which has a heavy European population, from what I can see). In my entire adult working life in the US, I've never once had an employment contract (and still have never seen one or heard of anyone else with one, either).

Yeah,contract work in north america is more reserved for very specific situations (for example, you need expertise in some very niche system) and even then that's pretty rare outside of consultants. In Europe it's everywhere.

When I was in France it was quite jarring and imo, it seems like it would be more stressful than at will employment as it's basically a yearly stress (as opposed to stress only when the economy is bad for example). But I think some European countries have some protections for contractors too, I just don't know if those apply to when your contract just doesn't get renewed.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#206

As you consider the decision to let them go, consider the impact on other people in your work place too. Other developers notice someone like that underperforming and getting overpaid, and it can hurt the good climate you aim for. It may feel bad to fire them, but it may be worse to keep them.

If I were working on that team, I wouldn’t like the company firing the senior dev. If they keep them, and train them, that would reinforce the idea that the company is taking care of its employees. That’s nice. I hate this rat race of being a performant engineer. The moment your performance declines, your managers will let you know and you’re under the radar now.

> If they keep them, and train them, that would reinforce the idea that the company is taking care of its employees. That’s nice

I don't think so. A company is under no obligation to handhold their employees. It should be a 2 way street, beneficial in both directions. If it's not beneficial for one party, they should be able to be honest about it and move in another direction. We're all adults here.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From this post there's not really any indication they're a "bad employee" though. They aren't up to the needs of the team that hired them, but that was on that team to figure out before they hired them. It's probably fine to fire them, but also everyone involved should be open about the fact that the hiring and so also the firing is the direct result of their own failure. The morale implications of this could be lot…

Well, not calling for help when needed makes them a very dangerous junior. I don't know by the post if they are a good person. Could they have also lied on the interview? I would consider personality as a strong factor in keeping them, and if the company has room for a junior. Lowering the salary is a hard requirement though.

> Could they have also lied on the interview?

Everyone lies on interviews. Especially interviewers.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#208
Your mileage may vary, but I have repeatedly used a particular strategy in difficult work conversations: Explain the problem to the person in direct, plain language, then ask them what they would like to be done about it and/or what they would do in your shoes. You're not committing to actually doing what they suggest, but you're making them aware of the problem and giving them some agency, and some insight into your perspective.

For example: I was hired by a company as a developer, and they loved me, I was very productive there. But just a few months into the employment, a competing company offered me a much higher salary with a much shorter commute. I went to my manager and told him all about the offer, and asked him what he would do in my shoes. He said he'd take the other offer (since he knew that a competitive counter-offer was impossible). I took the offer, and we parted on very good terms.

So you may be able to say something like this to this employee: "There seems to have been a misunderstanding about our expectations and your experience. We thought you had more experience relevant for this role. We don't want to leave you high and dry, but the current arrangement isn't tenable. Would you prefer to restart as a junior developer and work your way back up as you gain experience, or do you feel it would be better to part ways?"

Though now that I've typed it out, I'm not sure the strategy works as well when the one instigating the conversation has more power than the person being asked. Hmm. I'll post this in spite of my self doubt, just in case someone replies with interesting insights. I'm happy to be wrong if I learn something.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#210
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You absolutely need to consider how the rest of the team will interpret you actions. Most probably know this individual is underperforming already. Teammates usually have a sense before the manager does. But the way you handle it will also be observed. Others need to know you won’t just fire someone on the spot if performance doesn’t match expectations. Life happens, people have personal life issues that may occasion…

As a counter point to this, I’ve witnessed the practice of designing these processes to terminate someone creates a ton of burnout for the manager. Expect to spend at least 20% of your time managing the PIP. Documentation, one on ones, babying tickets being assigned, etc. On top of that I’ve never seen anyone get through a PIP successfully (n=6). Furthermore, it can also create a culture of just dismissing any candid…

> I’ve never seen anyone get through a PIP successfully (n=6).

I don’t think they’re meant to succeed. If you want to keep an employee, you give them feedback and coach them. A PIP is used to document evidence that an employee is incompetent and is incapable of improving despite your best efforts, as a precursor to firing them.

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