Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#881

Post by yazzku » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 2:00 AM UTC

zrn900 wrote: post #715

yazzku wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this downvoted?

People dont like to be the gentrifier. In digital nomad forums or 'investment' forums the reaction to any news about gentrification is the same - downvoting, denial, blaming someone else. Most blame the locals for letting it happen. Some more educated try to blame 'the corrupt politicians' (whatever the f that means, they plug it everywhere as if its applicable), others blame the 'real estate sellers'. They want to b…

I read through your other comments and don't exactly agree with many of your points, which appear to be pro-squatting? But you certainly seem to have a good handle on the problems. Is there a way we can connect outside of HN? Not really sure how to PM somebody here or if it's even possible.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#882

Post by toss1 » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 2:05 AM UTC

petsfed wrote: post #632

toss1 wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It doesn't matter whether it is a primary residence, secondary residence, or an investment property. It is the property of someone else. Without permission, opening the door or window and going into it is breaking and entering. And do not try to argue that breaking, entering, and squatting somehow reduces the housing shortage — the effect is the exact opposite. With insecure property access and rights, people wil…

Or the owners of those 100k units that are just left to rot can accept that their "investment" can't (and shouldn't) make them money faster than inflation, and lower the asking price . The scenario you describe only exists because the number of "investors" buying up properties to flip and turn a profit vastly outnumbers the number people looking to buy their personal residence, and have the skills and disposition to…

I think we are conflating Private Equity, small-time house-fixer-flippers, and vacation homes.

I think we agree that the PE crowd can rot in hell — they're buying properties to standardize, corner the market, and charge extractive artificially-inflated 'market' rents. They won't be idle long, and I don't think squatting is the fix for that.

I'm quite sure that the PE companies are the primary driver here, not small-time fix-and-flip investors. PE firms are taking the houses off the market for good.

The small-time fix-&-flip people take houses off the market for only a short time, and upgrade the property. If they take too long, they WILL lose money, which is also why even if squatters do zero damage (never heard of it happening), the mere delay can cause it to be unprofitable.

Getting PE out of the market WILL reduce the competition and bring down prices. The same is not true for small time fix-&-flip investors.

The small-time fixer-flippers are taking a risk. Their properties may or may not increase in value at all, even with improvements. The goal is to add value greater than the cost of the improvements. From the people I know who have done it, this is mostly accomplished by sweat equity, i.e., they do a lot of the work themselves, hiring trades only where necessary, as if it is all full-price trade work, it will NOT be profitable. If you think that individual enterprising people adding value, including bringing non-viable housing stock back to market viability —AT THEIR OWN RISK— is somehow bad, we should make a regulatory or tax policy against it. Making random people subject to arbitrary effective confiscation at the whims of random squatters is not fair to anyone.

Same for vacation homes. If you think it bad policy that they exist, then enact new tax or regulatory schemes.

Making random people subject to random confiscation and expense will not get the results you want. It will get people even more strongly motivated to be angry at squatters.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#883

Post by madaxe_again » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 3:51 AM UTC

atlantic wrote: post #822

madaxe_again wrote: post #803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every buyer there is a seller. Are we to understand that the sellers are being forced to sell, and aren’t being paid? Because otherwise it sounds awfully like foreign capital is flowing into the economy, which is hard to describe as a disaster.

You know, sometimes things look good on a macro scale, but not at the personal level. Both perspectives need to be considered. I live in southern Europe. If I look out of my window, the tall buildings in front are about 80% shuttered all year round. At the same time, there is an acute shortage of housing in this area. Many families who have been here for generations are moving out, because real estate prices are too…

I also live in Southern Europe - around us, there are literally hundreds of perfectly habitable houses for less than €50,000. I’m about two hours away from Porto and Madrid, there’s gigabit fibre in the village, and the quality of life is fantastic. We have a real community, still.

The problem, as ever, is uneven distribution - both of capital and population.

I see this as a problem which will solve itself in fairly short order - as remote work becomes more common, and then as AI devours entire categories of jobs and UBI becomes an inevitability, people will start to want to move out of the ridiculously overpriced magnet cities, and into the villages and towns our parents deserted.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#884

Post by s1artibartfast » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 4:40 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #870

s1artibartfast wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets assume this rule is only about living spaces, and not other assets and infrastructure. I like building and improving houses. I have one in the bay area I work to improve. I have built a mountain home in the Sierra Nevada, and am working on a desert home in Nevada. These take nothing away from anyone. They were empty land surrounded by more empty parcels before I did something with them. There is no shortage of l…

There could be an exception for houses in the middle of nowhere. But also in economic terms, if that house is in a zero-demand area and won't be on the market for decades, then it would be better if you don't build it, and instead either spend that money elsewhere or invest it.

Who cares about economic terms? It is my money, and I will light it on fire if I want to.

Furthermore, sweat equity is real. You can put sweat, blood, and 100k of materials into something and have an 300k asset. It doesnt matter if a desert lot was dirt cheap.

I find it funny when people forget you can create value yourself instead of passively investing in someone else who creates it.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#885

Post by Rizzzk » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 6:48 AM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #551

Aurornis wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> real estate owners to actually use their real estate instead of letting them rot to benefit from value appreciation This is such an obviously false premise that I don’t understand how you even arrived at it. Real estate is expensive to maintain. You don’t let real estate appreciate in value by letting it “rot”. If you think the US housing crisis is due to investors letting houses “rot” then you clearly don’t unders…

> Real estate is expensive to maintain. You don’t let real estate appreciate in value by letting it “rot”. In my neighborhood, there are at least 3 unoccupied homes within a 3 minute walk. We live in an area with accelerated entropy (the forest) and the homes are, by any useful metric, rotting. I will let you guess if in the past 10 years the value of the homes has gone up or down. I would love if someone, squatters…

Yes, maintenance costs can be a pain, but you can mitigate them by hiring a property manager or budgeting for repairs. And if you invest in the right areas, property values can appreciate over time. It's all about being a responsible investor and taking care of your properties. I know it's not the same everywhere, but in many places, real estate is a solid way to build wealth. Just think about it: you can earn rental income, get tax benefits, and potentially sell the property for a profit down the line. It's worth considering, even with the challenges you mentioned.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#886

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 7:07 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #884

Dylan16807 wrote: post #870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There could be an exception for houses in the middle of nowhere. But also in economic terms, if that house is in a zero-demand area and won't be on the market for decades, then it would be better if you don't build it, and instead either spend that money elsewhere or invest it.

Who cares about economic terms? It is my money, and I will light it on fire if I want to. Furthermore, sweat equity is real. You can put sweat, blood, and 100k of materials into something and have an 300k asset. It doesnt matter if a desert lot was dirt cheap. I find it funny when people forget you can create value yourself instead of passively investing in someone else who creates it.

> Who cares about economic terms? It is my money, and I will light it on fire if I want to.

You're the one that brought up value creation, not me.

If it's a "who cares" when it goes against how you want to spend, then it's also a "who cares" when it aligns with how you want to spend.

> Furthermore, sweat equity is real. You can put sweat, blood, and 100k of materials into something and have an 300k asset. It doesnt matter if a desert lot was dirt cheap.

> I find it funny when people forget you can create value yourself instead of passively investing in someone else who creates it.

A house nobody else wants has a value of zero dollars, and you didn't create value.

If that house is worth 300k, then I misunderstood your earlier description.

But this kind of situation is not what normally happens. Whether it's allowed or not doesn't really matter. The important case is what happens when people build/buy in areas with more than negligible demand.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#887

Post by allarm » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 7:30 AM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #774

chipdart wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can blame the okupas, calling them lazy if that suits you. But (...) I think you are completely missing one of the main origins of okupas in Spain: organized crime involved in extortion schemes. I personally witnessed a case where individuals took over a store lot previously occupied by a restaurant. As the story goes, the restaurant operator tried to negotiate lowering rent to no success, followed by spending m…

[flagged]

> he preferred to pay for a security firm, rather than lower the rent

He’s the owner. He can do whatever he wants. That’s how ownership works.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#888

Post by Wytwwww » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 8:42 AM UTC

hnbad wrote: post #755

Wytwwww wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was wondering what kind of website You do know that it's run by a VC company? Not particularly surprising that most most people generally support the protection of property rights

I was talking about the website the article is on, not HN. I'm well aware that HN is run by Y Combinator. It's in the URL. That said, squatting unused housing is literally "disrupting the housing market" by eliminating the waste of critical resources. It's upsetting the market and breaking established rules, sure, but so are AirBnB, Uber, generative AI and cryptocurrencies. If you think about the founding mythology o…

> I was talking about the website the article is on,

It's website of the biggest(?) real estate classifieds website in Spain

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#889

Post by Wytwwww » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 8:43 AM UTC

hnbad wrote: post #755

Wytwwww wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was wondering what kind of website You do know that it's run by a VC company? Not particularly surprising that most most people generally support the protection of property rights

I was talking about the website the article is on, not HN. I'm well aware that HN is run by Y Combinator. It's in the URL. That said, squatting unused housing is literally "disrupting the housing market" by eliminating the waste of critical resources. It's upsetting the market and breaking established rules, sure, but so are AirBnB, Uber, generative AI and cryptocurrencies. If you think about the founding mythology o…

> I was talking about the website the article is on,

It's website of the biggest(?) real estate classifieds website in Spain so it's not particularly shocking.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#890

Post by lottin » Sat, Jun 08, 2024, 2:21 PM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #556

lottin wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because a run-down building sells for the same price as one in good shape.

You're just making the bet that real estate value increases faster than the building deteriorates with minimal maintenance. That's often a really good bet .

I don't think that this is the bet. The bet is that the market will not discount the extra repair/maintenance costs that the buyer will have to incur, which is a ridiculous proposition. Speculators gain nothing from letting the property they own rot away.