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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

idealista.com

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#711

Post by thegrim33 »

kerkeslager wrote: post #660
jjav wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd prefer they stole from the people actually causing the problem, the rich who buy up housing and make it unaffordable. If you actually want to protest the system this is what you should do. Go occupy the vacant summer homes of rich politicians and CEOs.

I think people angry about squatters are thinking that squatters are squatting for political reasons, because for people angry about squatters, this is a political issue. For squatters, this isn't primarily a political issue, it's primarily a survival issue. Squatting in the summer house of a CEO does solve your survival need for shelter, but it leaves a bunch of your other survival needs unmet because you're far awa…

> The reality is that while squatters might hold political beliefs, few people would choose to squat if they had other housing options

Here in Seattle, time and time again, studies are done which show the majority of homeless, when offered shelter, turn it down and prefer to live on the streets. Which seems to completely contradict your claim that they would make use of housing options.

Maybe Seattle homeless are different than your homeless. I don't know why that'd be the case. The same people with the same political ideologies blame the cause of it on the same things, in both places, at least.

https://komonews.com/news/project-seattle/many-homeless-peop...

https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-city-council-wants-d...

https://www.seattlepi.com/homeless_in_seattle/article/A-lot-...

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#712

Post by yazzku »

peter335 wrote: post #167
dr__mario wrote: post #144

"The rise of okupation"... but they make no references to data. Here is the data (in Spanish) [1]. The difference between trespassing (that somebody enters in the house you live) and usurpation (the house is yours but is not where you live) is very important. Both problems are way less prevalent than what appears on the media (see [1]), but trespassing is waaay lower (and as the owner you have better mechanisms to re…

If you make it financially risky to own a rental property you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments. This hurts both renters and the potential landlords. It would be much better to just increase property taxes.. Speaking as a Dane, this kind kind of economically illiterate leftist lawlessness is an important reason why Spain is poorer both poorer and has a worse welfare…

100%. We have the stupidest housing laws. "economically illiterate leftist lawlessness" is the exact way to put this, and I myself usually tend towards the left.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#713

Post by yazzku »

zrn900 wrote: post #488
harperlee wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments You would be surprised about the sheer number of spaniards that would welcome this second-order effect. In the last ~10 years, renting has skyrocketed, due to the discovery of the spanish renting market by international money, and renting laws relaxation (demand side). Meanwhile, this has not increased the supply of homes, as i…

Even worse, now the digital nomad phenomenon is increasing rents - ~19% of the demand in the rent market in Madrid in 2023 is from foreigners. As a result, the locals learned the phrase 'digital nomad' and they are now fighting back. https://madridnofrills.com/gentrification/

Why is this downvoted?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#714

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #396
next_xibalba wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s not. Living where you want, for free, is not a right.

Having a free shelter is fundamental to a person's freedom, arguing otherwise is immoral.

I actually lived in a country where everyone had a right for free shelter. It was called the USSR.

The quality and quantity of said shelter was beyond abysmal. Several families sharing a single apartment, a family per room, was the norm.

If anyone attempted to squatter anywhere, they would very quickly find themselves free sheltered in Gulag. If they were to argue for their rights against oppression and exploitation, like you do, they would be very quickly free sheltered in a mad house and injected with generous doses of haloperidol.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#715

Post by zrn900 »

yazzku wrote: post #713
zrn900 wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse, now the digital nomad phenomenon is increasing rents - ~19% of the demand in the rent market in Madrid in 2023 is from foreigners. As a result, the locals learned the phrase 'digital nomad' and they are now fighting back. https://madridnofrills.com/gentrification/

Why is this downvoted?

People dont like to be the gentrifier. In digital nomad forums or 'investment' forums the reaction to any news about gentrification is the same - downvoting, denial, blaming someone else. Most blame the locals for letting it happen. Some more educated try to blame 'the corrupt politicians' (whatever the f that means, they plug it everywhere as if its applicable), others blame the 'real estate sellers'. They want to blame anybody but the ones who are doing the actual gentrifying, themselves. This is especially prominent among those from Angloamerican countries where being rich amongst the poverty is something admirable and respectable and you should definitely not hate them and the poor should keep their voice down. Or some variant of that mentality. They are dumbfounded when they find locals openly cursing them and calling them derogatory names and publicly doing politics against them. There's so much cultural difference.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#716

Post by zrn900 »

nerdawson wrote: post #706
zrn900 wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm merely pointing out that you're assuming ignorance simply because I have a different opinion to you Yes. You have a different opinion than me and the majority of Spaniards. Despite that you think that you can make statements on behalf of us. There comes the ignorance. > Freeloaders, admittedly a charged word, is how I'd view someone Spaniards don't. > How is that any different to a mugger stealing your phone or…

I live in a country of people with diverse views. I feel it's ignorant to assume that I'm speaking on behalf of the majority of my fellow citizens. Quoted from the article: > Public opinion on squatting is polarised, with some viewing it as a necessary response to systemic failures that leave citizens without affordable housing options. Others see it as an infringement on property rights and a challenge to the rule o…

> I live in a country of people with diverse views. I feel it's ignorant to assume that I'm speaking on behalf of the majority of my fellow citizens.

You are speaking on behalf of the American mentality that you subscribe to. Thats who 'you' are.

> If you're actually fine with theft...we simply couldn't be further apart in our views

Its not you and I who are far apart in our 'views'. Its the American culture that you subscribe to and, well, the rest of the world's culture who are apart. Even more so with the Spanish culture. Getting flabbergasted at the difference and then 'rephrasing and reiterating' it as a bad thing will not change anything. Spaniards will not consider okupas thieves and the Spanish constitution's right to housing clause wont change.

So yes, this discussion is unproductive as you literally live in a world of capitalist philosophy that is quite distanced from the world that still keeps its humanity. Bye.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#717

Post by HDThoreaun »

kerkeslager wrote: post #653
HDThoreaun wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you build new housing when someone can waltz in and change the locks and youre shit out of luck?

That logic also applies to demand. Why would you buy a house if someone can waltz in and... It's very much not in evidence that this is affecting supply more than demand.

You wouldnt, which is why no one is building houses. People still need somewhere to live though.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#718

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

carapace wrote: post #471
s1artibartfast wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who has to build that shelter, and what about their freedom?

> And who has to build that shelter Jimmy & Rosalynn Carter https://www.habitat.org/carter-work-project > what about their freedom? I think they made good use of it. We in the USA are the wealthiest nation in the history of the world. We could solve homelessness and hunger tomorrow. I'm not saying that people should lose their property to squatters, that's not the solution. I'm saying that we could build ~300,000 new…

Then everyone will go sleep in the street, in order to get a free house.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#719

Post by yazzku »

zrn900 wrote: post #715
yazzku wrote: post #713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this downvoted?

People dont like to be the gentrifier. In digital nomad forums or 'investment' forums the reaction to any news about gentrification is the same - downvoting, denial, blaming someone else. Most blame the locals for letting it happen. Some more educated try to blame 'the corrupt politicians' (whatever the f that means, they plug it everywhere as if its applicable), others blame the 'real estate sellers'. They want to b…

That website is pretty good, by the way. I was not aware of the extent of the problem.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#720

Post by Teever »

noduerme wrote: post #685
burnished wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theft is a violation of property laws. If you recognize that property laws are in some senses arbitrary/designed to fit a purpose (which you seem to, since you are proposing changes to them) then I think you should also recognize that treating theft as a purely black and white topic does not make sense. Not advocating for the burglary higher up the thread, still a shit thing to do so someone

Based on your definition, theft of indigenous land would be fine since there were no property laws to violate. Yet it was not fine. That's because theft is a violation of universal moral laws. Everyone knows it is wrong. Justifying it is an immoral barbarism.

How do you feel about the freedom to roam that is codified in some areas?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

The concept of property rights is a bit more fluid than you think.

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