Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#841

Post by Manuel_D » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 5:15 PM UTC

kgwgk wrote: post #793

Manuel_D wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that the same thing, in effect, happens if you stop paying property taxes. The tax builds up and then when the house is sold after passing the government collects the tax before the descendants receive the sale proceeds. This is why complaining about rising property taxes is almost never about the elderly people who actually live in the house. It's about their children that want to inherit the house wi…

> The reality is that … People in different countries experience different realities.

Not really. By definition if your property value rises by 10x you have enough money to pay the property taxes by leveraging your home. Sure, it means you'll have to sell when you die and won't be able to pass on the house to your heirs. But the meme, "elderly homeowner becomes homeless because his home became super value" is just a fiction. It's not that the homeowner can't pay the property taxes - he's got plenty of value in his home. It's really the children that want to inherit a valuable home but don't want to cover the tax back payment.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#842

Post by Manuel_D » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 5:17 PM UTC

zrn900 wrote: post #687

Manuel_D wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making renting riskier doesn't inherently make property less expensive. If a shortage of rental properties makes more people want to buy condos and houses, then there's more demand for condos and houses. Making renting riskier also means that apartment buildings are less profitable and less likely to be built. A more likely outcome is that condos and houses get more expensive because of the shortage of apartments. An…

> Making renting riskier doesn't inherently make property less expensive It did that here. > A more likely outcome You are literally making up stuff and preaching a false reality as you go. No wonder how the US housing market got shafted - seeing what kind of mentality you people subscribe to.

If rents went down, it wasn't because renting became riskier. By definition that's going to raise rents.

More likely it's other factors like remote works becoming less common once covid subsided.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#843

Post by kgwgk » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 5:20 PM UTC

Manuel_D wrote: post #841

kgwgk wrote: post #793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reality is that … People in different countries experience different realities.

Not really. By definition if your property value rises by 10x you have enough money to pay the property taxes by leveraging your home. Sure, it means you'll have to sell when you die and won't be able to pass on the house to your heirs. But the meme, "elderly homeowner becomes homeless because his home became super value" is just a fiction. It's not that the homeowner can't pay the property taxes - he's got plenty of…

Just in case it was not clear, my comment was about

> The reality is that the same thing, in effect, happens if you stop paying property taxes. The tax builds up, etc.

and in many places worse things will happen to you if you stop paying property taxes.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#844

Post by chous » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 5:54 PM UTC

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #629

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you’d rather the poor be even poorer as long as the rich wouldn’t control as much wealth or didn’t exist at all?

No, I think no one should get exploited and oppressed and everyone should have an opportunity to develop to the heights of one's potential.

@TotalCrackpot, I completely agree. Thank you.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#845

Post by jjav » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

diggan wrote: post #805

hollerith wrote: post #777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want the authorities to requisition dwellings when they could buy them instead? What is it about this issue that makes so many people wish to treat landlords harshly?

> What is it about this issue that makes so many people wish to treat landlords harshly? Compassion. They see someone without a roof over their head, while at the same time seeing agencies/owners owning multiple properties just to enrich themselves. It's not hard to understand why people are more compassionate towards the people with nothing, compared to how they see the people with a lot .

> > What is it about this issue that makes so many people wish to treat landlords harshly?

> Compassion.

I don't feel like that's the true motivation. Where is the compassion for the middle class worker who can just barely afford some house, just to have it stolen (see parallel threads in this discussion for accounts of that happening) then?

If it was actually compassion, we'd be advocating for the government to provide adequate services to all homeless, paid for by taxes with progressive taxation so the rich also pay into the solution.

> compared to how they see the people with a lot

As noted in parallel comments, the people with a lot are immune from having their property stolen/squatted because they can afford private security measures that make this impossible. The victims here can only be middle class property owners who can't afford private security to watch their property 24x7.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#846

Post by jjav » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 6:12 PM UTC

zxspectrum1982 wrote: post #829

kjkjadksj wrote: post #825

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What stops you from showing up with a locksmith and a few hired security paid to just throw their stuff out of the house onto the street and then change the locks? Thats how they do it in the US.

In Spain, that would put you (the rightful owner) in jail and the judge would tell you to give the keys to the squatter. Yes, it's that crazy.

If the squatter is allowed to break in while you're not home and change the locks, why can't the owner wait for them to be out and also break in and change the locks?

Does the law specifically say that breaking in is allowed by anyone except the legitimate owner?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#847

Post by toss1 » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 6:28 PM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #836

toss1 wrote: post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Someone's still paying for the house flipping. Of course they are - even in the case of 'flipping', they are at least working to add value. Barring complete incompetence, the repaired and upgraded place is MORE valuable. >>By definition the flipper makes a margin between what they paid, the repairs, and the price they get at the end. NO; there is nothing 'by definition' about it. While investors all desire to make…

> economies of scale, including buying materials at trade and/or bulk prices vs retail prices, ability to employ workers more efficiently across multiple properties at once, etc. You're arguing for having professional home renovators, that works the same if the house is flipped or not. So let's choose not. > squatters You're protected from squatters when it's your primary residency. You make it sound like you'd go bu…

>>you're flipping properties, it was your winter vacation house, or you're actually spending your life in the Bahamas

So, you are saying that people who do any of those things should be subject to arbitrary confiscation of their property or rights to it?

NO, that is absurd and obscene. Everyone who has a second property is not wealthy to the point where it doesn't matter. I know many people who have remote properties that they visit intermittently or seasonally, who struggled to earn and invest enough to make it possible and have spent decades working on and improving the property. In some cases, the value has increased greatly, and in others, it's still just a remote camp on a remote wild spot.

Under what ethical reasoning should they be deprived of their property? Particularly, that they should be deprived of it randomly and at the whim of squatters? (e.g., if society decides that no one should be allowed to own a second property, then we should pass laws to outlaw and/or tax them out of existence in an organized way; there's no justification for arbitrary taking)

EDIT, add: >>You're arguing for having professional home renovators,

No, this does not necessarily mean professionals, it means anyone doing it repeatedly or at scale, including a lot of semi-pros. Professionals and trades are often involved. And once you do it a few times (I know people who have done some), you do get economies, efficiencies, and knowledge that makes things both more economical and have better outcomes than the average homeowner/first-timer can do. I still don't see the argument against flipping a house (except for bad jobs, which homeowners can also do), and certainly none that says anyone should be subject to arbitrary confiscation by squatters

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#848

Post by zrn900 » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 6:29 PM UTC

yazzku wrote: post #719

zrn900 wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People dont like to be the gentrifier. In digital nomad forums or 'investment' forums the reaction to any news about gentrification is the same - downvoting, denial, blaming someone else. Most blame the locals for letting it happen. Some more educated try to blame 'the corrupt politicians' (whatever the f that means, they plug it everywhere as if its applicable), others blame the 'real estate sellers'. They want to b…

That website is pretty good, by the way. I was not aware of the extent of the problem.

Yes, reading it made me realize that it was far worse than what I thought too.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#849

Post by zrn900 » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 6:32 PM UTC

bdowling wrote: post #704

zrn900 wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Allowing occupation of vacant properties by squatters because there isn't enough housing supply is like allowing stealing food from farms because there isn’t enough food supply Love these religious-sounding sermons. Im telling what is happening here, a lot of 'free market' types are preaching to me that what is happening here is not happening and something else should be happening per the magic of 'free market' or…

Certainly, owners sometimes leave properties vacant, and sometimes do so for long periods, for various reasons. The housing market, however, should be big enough and robust enough to allow for some of that occurring. Personally, I'd like there to be so much more housing that landlords have to compete with each other for who can provide the best apartment for the lowest price rather than potential tenants competing wi…

> The housing market, however, should be big enough and robust enough to allow for some of that occurring.

All of these are just wishful thinking based on non-scientific economic hullabaloo that was developed in the past 200 years. They never worked anywhere. They never will.

In the end, it comes down to the concept "Housing should be for living in, not for profit". Its a fundamental necessity/infrastructure. And privatizing it makes as much sense as privatizing the military or the police. The moment you allow it, those with bigger pockets will f*ck everything up.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#850

Post by zrn900 » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 6:33 PM UTC

zrn900 wrote: post #694

piuantiderp wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lmao, that's wishful thinking. That's why in decent countries you can get them curb-stomped and their teeth kicked-in for invading a property.

> That's why in decent countries you can get them curb-stomped and their teeth kicked-in for invading a property. Yeah. Decent countries like the US, and you end up with 99% of the population being unable to buy a house. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/homes-for-sale-affordable-housi... Lol at the delirium of you people's mentality. You don't know what 'decency' is. If that's decent, literally f*ck that.

Its crazy how people downvote uncomfortable info and statistics as if it makes them go away...