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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#681

Post by s1artibartfast »

kerkeslager wrote: post #676
s1artibartfast wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

I support cheap and affordable housing. I support charity for people that are honest members of society.

I think unrepentant thieves need to be incarcerated, not because they deserve a housing, but to protect innocent people from their destructive Behavior.

>Quoting so you can't retract. I don't think you'll find much agreement there.

I think you'll find that you are in the minority. Look at laws for felony theft. I think most people would like even harsher penalties people that steal assets worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. All it takes is seeing it once and people swing very quickly against this kind of behavior.

You being hungry does not entitle you to my dinner. You being horny does not entitle you to my body. You being cold does not entitle you to my shelter.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#682

Post by lukan »

passwordle wrote: post #663
lukan wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why shouldn't the old couple move to let 10x apartments be built?" Imagine you worked all your life and now you just want to enjoy your peace in your home for your last years. You really would not want to move and I am very against driving old people out of their homes, even though I am one of those young people with a small apartment also seeing empty and unused space everywhere.

I think not what parent comment said?

What do you think parent said?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#683

Post by RestlessMind »

kerkeslager wrote: post #653
HDThoreaun wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you build new housing when someone can waltz in and change the locks and youre shit out of luck?

That logic also applies to demand. Why would you buy a house if someone can waltz in and... It's very much not in evidence that this is affecting supply more than demand.

> That logic also applies to demand. Why would you buy a house if someone can waltz in and...

The clear answer is you'd buy one if you know how to handle squatters. In other words, you are well connected and have enough capital to take preventive measures described in the article.

In other words, rich can get richer by having lengthy security apparatus to protect their property. Middle class investors, who might want to buy an extra house to have a stream of income from rents gets that ladder pulled away from them.

One might believe that renting itself should not exist and making money from housing is immoral. If so, let's pull that ladder away from everyone including the rich (though that won't end well since not everyone can be a homeowner).

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#684

Post by qwertycrackers »

diggan wrote: post #530
horns4lyfe wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s someone in this thread arguing exactly for squatters right for another’s primary residence, barring their ability to organize some kind self defense. Didn’t sound great

As always, there are extremists on both sides, that's no lie. Generally, most people aren't so extreme as to say private ownership shouldn't exist at all. At least from most of the people I interact with here in Barcelona. Besides what people think is right/wrong, the police does help you (quickly) to throw out people that try to invade your residence that you actively live in.

No, you just claimed one comment ago that "no one is arguing" that. Don't make those kinds of assertions in a situation when you know full well someone in this very thread is likely to do it.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#685

Post by noduerme »

burnished wrote: post #640
jjav wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we are missing half the story if we don't consider the other end of the spectrum No, not really. Theft is not the answer. Consider laws restricting how many houses a person can own, or maybe an increasing property tax on each unit. These are good solutions. Condoning theft has no other side to the story, it's always wrong.

Theft is a violation of property laws. If you recognize that property laws are in some senses arbitrary/designed to fit a purpose (which you seem to, since you are proposing changes to them) then I think you should also recognize that treating theft as a purely black and white topic does not make sense. Not advocating for the burglary higher up the thread, still a shit thing to do so someone

Based on your definition, theft of indigenous land would be fine since there were no property laws to violate.

Yet it was not fine.

That's because theft is a violation of universal moral laws. Everyone knows it is wrong. Justifying it is an immoral barbarism.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#686

Post by zrn900 »

Manuel_D wrote: post #527
zrn900 wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what will the buyers do with the apartments? Rent them? Yes. > This is as nonsensical as the proposals Its not nonsensical. Its what is happening. Use it or lose it. Works. Find a good tenant, rent it for decades - like how it is supposed to be.

Again, the comment you responded to explains how this makes it more risky and less profitable to rent out apartments. It's dissuading people from renting: > you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments When something becomes riskier, fewer people do it unless there's some other incentive. A vacancy tax could incentivize renting, buy enabling squatters does nothing but makin…

> Again, the comment you responded to explains

This kind of thing baffles me. Im telling what is happening here. A guy on the internet refers to another on the internet who 'explains' to me that what is happening where I am in the actual reality is not real.

That's literally crazy. It feels like you people are preaching. Against the reality.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#687

Post by zrn900 »

Manuel_D wrote: post #579
carlosjobim wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a renter buys an apartment or house to live in, that means the place they rented becomes vacant. It is the most basic math, addition and subtraction. Lower real estate prices means less renters and thus lower rents. Unless you conjure people into the country by immigration.

Making renting riskier doesn't inherently make property less expensive. If a shortage of rental properties makes more people want to buy condos and houses, then there's more demand for condos and houses. Making renting riskier also means that apartment buildings are less profitable and less likely to be built. A more likely outcome is that condos and houses get more expensive because of the shortage of apartments. An…

> Making renting riskier doesn't inherently make property less expensive

It did that here.

> A more likely outcome

You are literally making up stuff and preaching a false reality as you go. No wonder how the US housing market got shafted - seeing what kind of mentality you people subscribe to.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#688

Post by zrn900 »

nec4b wrote: post #565
zrn900 wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speaking as a Dane, this kind kind of economically illiterate leftist lawlessness is an important reason why Spain is poorer both poorer and has a worse welfare state than Denmark. If only Spain could profit from helping murder brown people in 3rd world countries overseas and by speculating on banking, then forcing the bailout of those sunken PRIVATE banks on other countries and then forcing them to privatize their…

>> If only Spain could profit from helping murder brown people in 3rd world countries overseas You mean like when Spain colonized Americas?

If only. Spain declared all Native Americans Spanish subjects with equal rights in 1519. Then they proceeded to hang in public any governor who violated those rights. That's why there are 7 million 'pure blooded' (whatever that means) Native Americans in South America today and there are races like Mexican.

What's more, Spain treated the 'colonies' as parts of Spain and it spent all its money developing them. From the first university in the Americas to all kinds of hospitals, schools, infrastructure was built by the Spanish state with Spanish money. Thats why Spain lost the imperial race: Building up the locals instead of exploiting them - leaving aside not murdering them all to replace them like the Anglosaxons did.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#689

Post by zrn900 »

bdowling wrote: post #547
zrn900 wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that those occupation friendly laws work and force real estate owners to actually rent out their properties rather than let them sit empty to appreciate value. Whereas the ideas of a person that only exist in a book are just ideas that exist in a book.

Allowing occupation of vacant properties by squatters because there isn't enough housing supply is like allowing stealing food from farms because there isn’t enough food supply. It’s demoralizing to the producers and maintainers of the resource and does not encourage further investment in the activity.

> Allowing occupation of vacant properties by squatters because there isn't enough housing supply is like allowing stealing food from farms because there isn’t enough food supply

Love these religious-sounding sermons. Im telling what is happening here, a lot of 'free market' types are preaching to me that what is happening here is not happening and something else should be happening per the magic of 'free market' or capitalism or whatever. Hearing these, one understands who the US ended up with housing being unaffordable for 99% of Americans...

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#690

Post by kerkeslager »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #681
kerkeslager wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I support cheap and affordable housing. I support charity for people that are honest members of society. I think unrepentant thieves need to be incarcerated, not because they deserve a housing, but to protect innocent people from their destructive Behavior. >Quoting so you can't retract. I don't think you'll find much agreement there. I think you'll find that you are in the minority. Look at laws for felony theft. I…

> I think you'll find that you are in the minority. Look at laws for felony theft.

I think the laws for felony theft as compared to the laws for murder and rape are pretty solid evidence that rape and murder are considered more serious crimes than theft. And that's setting aside that there are plenty of theft laws that are even less serious than felony theft. In cases where people are stealing to meet their basic needs such as food or housing, it's not uncommon for perpetrators to receive lenient sentences including probation with no prison time.

What's your argument for landlordism not being theft? Shouldn't those people get a job too? Or is theft only a crime when poor people do it?

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