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Alan Turing died 70 years ago

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Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#71

Post by tim333 »

advael wrote: post #56
croes wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not simply convicted >His probation would be conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal physical changes designed to reduce libido, known as "chemical castration".

Yea apparently it was so important to the government of Britain to dictate which consenting adults can fuck each other that they would force hormones and essentially permanent probation on a literal world-changing scientist and undeniable war hero over it I will never recognize a government's right to tell adults what they can do with their own bodies and other consenting adults, and it's insane that there are zero g…

>insane that there are zero governments in the entire world that can uphold the basic principle of full bodily autonomy

If there is zero government you get gang rape etc so it's more a question of where you draw the line.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#73

Post by rayiner »

advael wrote: post #56
croes wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not simply convicted >His probation would be conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal physical changes designed to reduce libido, known as "chemical castration".

Yea apparently it was so important to the government of Britain to dictate which consenting adults can fuck each other that they would force hormones and essentially permanent probation on a literal world-changing scientist and undeniable war hero over it I will never recognize a government's right to tell adults what they can do with their own bodies and other consenting adults, and it's insane that there are zero g…

Ideally, governments just enforce the collective will of the public. What can override that? For example, you cite this “principle of full bodily autonomy.” Is that a thing that exists? What’s your proof for it. It sounds like some religious concept, except for libertarians.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#74

Post by trealira »

telesilla wrote: post #59
graemep wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is far from certain that he committed suicide: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18561092 IIRC part of the coroner's reasoning is that "In a man of his type, one never knows what his mental processes are going to do next." So essentially they concluded it was suicide because something about Turing (gay? academic? gay academic?) was regarded as indicating instability. I very much doubt a coroner today wo…

Bear in mind he was given hormones. As I'm from that half of the population who experiences hormone fluctuations but it's part of what women expect so we know about this and plan for it and support each other, I'd not be surprised if he was unaware of how his emotional state might be affected. Having said that, I'd like to see research on emotional states in male to female transitions, we should have plenty of data?

I'll only say this due to anonymity, but: mistakenly thinking I was trans, I once took testosterone blockers and estrogen for about a month (having bought them online probably illegally).

After a week, I was on the verge of tears pretty much 24/7, and I did cry whenever I was alone in my room. It's crazy how much I cried; I had never cried so much before in my life. My mood was much worse, obviously, since I was crying so much; I was crying due to sadness.

I'm pretty sure women aren't on the verge of tears 24/7 when they're menstruating or pregnant. So from my anecdotal experience, I'm convinced that the same hormone levels affect men and women differently.

I have read anecdotes from detransitioned FtMtFs that they had abnormally short tempers while taking testosterone. So, it may go the other way, too.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#75

Post by allsummer »

freedomben wrote: post #63
allsummer wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't think his gayness was a factor at all? It was a factor, but not directly. I believe Turing's gayness is being pink washed. The way I see it, the UK was not castrating people for being gay, but gave this option after breaking indecency laws and being convicted for it. > particularly after the facts started coming to light Turing went to police to file a report and casually (perhaps ignorantly or haughtily)…

> Turing went to police to file a report and casually (perhaps ignorantly or haughtily) admitted to breaking a law. Yes I agree, but (and I'm honestly asking because I don't know) was it one of those laws that nobody really took seriously or that was still on the books even though it was never enforced? Or was it a crime that was enforced at the time? Edit: Unrelated to above, but from parent comment, I hadn't heard…

The law was enforced, but it seems Turing did not take it seriously. He was openly gay since university, complained the law was stupid, was unapologetic in court, and sought out "sex vacations" after his conviction.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#76

Post by tim333 »

allsummer wrote: post #43
dxdm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was not castrated for being gay, but for a relationship with an Eastern European 19-year old homeless man, and getting his house broken into, while having a security clearance and access to secret information. Assuming this is true (I don't know), would a heterosexual man have received the same punishment? In any case, it seems pretty cruel and unusual to me.

A heterosexual 40-year-old man with top-level security clearance, access to sensitive information, and the skill set of Turing, getting involved with Eastern European strays, at the start of the Cold War, possibly compromising himself, would not have received the same punishment, but likely would not have been spared jail time. Cruel? From the lens of modern times, certainly. But don't we still chemically castrate ce…

If they are behaving in a iffy manner but have not actually leaked secrets they would probably just be fired or transfered.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#78

Post by foldr »

billyjobob wrote: post #66
advael wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea apparently it was so important to the government of Britain to dictate which consenting adults can fuck each other that they would force hormones and essentially permanent probation on a literal world-changing scientist and undeniable war hero over it I will never recognize a government's right to tell adults what they can do with their own bodies and other consenting adults, and it's insane that there are zero g…

Turing's boyfriend was 19, therefore not an adult under UK law at the time.

The age of consent for heterosexual sex was 16 at the time. As gay sex was illegal, there was no corresponding age of consent for it, but it’s misleading to suggest that 19 was not considered a sufficient age for sexual consent in general.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#79

Post by chx »

tim333 wrote: post #71
advael wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea apparently it was so important to the government of Britain to dictate which consenting adults can fuck each other that they would force hormones and essentially permanent probation on a literal world-changing scientist and undeniable war hero over it I will never recognize a government's right to tell adults what they can do with their own bodies and other consenting adults, and it's insane that there are zero g…

>insane that there are zero governments in the entire world that can uphold the basic principle of full bodily autonomy If there is zero government you get gang rape etc so it's more a question of where you draw the line.

whao talk about gaslighting

that's not what gp said

> it's insane that there are zero governments in the entire world

He said the subset of governments for which it is true they uphold full bodily autonomy is the empty set.

He did not state anything about a country not having a government

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#80

Post by joseda-hg »

trealira wrote: post #74
telesilla wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind he was given hormones. As I'm from that half of the population who experiences hormone fluctuations but it's part of what women expect so we know about this and plan for it and support each other, I'd not be surprised if he was unaware of how his emotional state might be affected. Having said that, I'd like to see research on emotional states in male to female transitions, we should have plenty of data?

I'll only say this due to anonymity, but: mistakenly thinking I was trans, I once took testosterone blockers and estrogen for about a month (having bought them online probably illegally). After a week, I was on the verge of tears pretty much 24/7, and I did cry whenever I was alone in my room. It's crazy how much I cried; I had never cried so much before in my life. My mood was much worse, obviously, since I was cryi…

To some extent, their body might be more "used" to it? I wouldn't whink a month would be enough for the body to actually get used to having a major hormone blocked and replaced with a diferent one
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