Still time to donate: https://equalitytime.github.io/FlowersForTuring/
Alan Turing died 70 years ago
51–60 of 142 posts
Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
The reasoning is interesting though. I don't necessarily agree with it but it's not "lmao gay". A posthumous pardon was not considered appropriate as Alan Turing was properly convicted of what at the time was a criminal offence. He would have known that his offence was against the law and that he would be prosecuted. It is tragic that Alan Turing was convicted of an offence that now seems both cruel and absurd—partic…
"A posthumous pardon was not considered appropriate as Alan Turing was properly convicted of what at the time was a criminal offence" That is what pardons are for. If he was not properly convicted then the conviction could have been overturned instead.
I think the Justice Minister's reasoning is that if we pardon every crime in the past that we deem permissible today, it would legitimize people to break laws they find unjust today, stating that they (perpetrator) did it "because the future will see it as ok". It feels like weak reasoning from my part, but I can't get into the Justice Minister's head. It's just speculation.
With that said, and Turing having been pardoned by the Queen (posthumously), I wonder if pardons in the UK also carry the "imputation of guilt" that pardons in the US carry as defined by the SCOTUS [0]?
Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago
#53I'm in London this week, seeing Bletchley park and the computer museum tomorrow! Super excited.
Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agree with your main final point, but not the billionaire bit... Why not give the billion to British immigrant Marian Rejewski and his Polish intelligence service peers and leaders who actually cracked Enigma, fled Poland, and gave their findings to the British (and French) as their home country was being taken over? https://daily.jstor.org/polish-codebreakers/ https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/polish-mathema…
Exactly. There are few good reasons to call Alan Turing a genius, but breaking Enigma definitely isn't one of them.
There is no single “Enigma”. There were several variations of the Enigma with increasing amounts of complexity, and changing key management practices. Trying to hand credit for “the break” to one group is like trying to credit one chef for devising all gourmet cuisine.
Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago
#55What would justice have looked like for Alan Turing for his war contributions? I'm tempted to say that we should have showered him with our highest honors, that Britain should have made him a duke and a billionaire out of gratitude, and he should have had drawers full of keys to the great cities of the world. But none of that could have meaured up against just leaving the poor guy alone to pursue his own thoughts and…
You assume Alan Turing actually cares about what a bunch of British politicians think of him and the award they choose to give him. You believe he cares about external validation and things like awards. You believe he cares about being a billionaire. You are more or less projecting your beliefs and ideas on what a successful life is on him. Alan pursued truth throughout his life. Not external validations. He was a sc…
it’s okay to idealize people, but don’t take away their humanity. Turing might not have been exactly like you, but he was human and not a robot. He wanted the same sort of things that you do.
Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago
#56Interesting to note that the Justice Minister Lord McNally didn't consider a pardon appropriate, but the Queen eventually pardoned Turing after an outpouring of public support (and with the advice of the Government) [0]. (Turing was convicted for committing homosexual acts. Based on my cursory reading it seems like it was one of the reasons why he likely committed suicide. It's a tragic story of a great man, whom we…
Not simply convicted >His probation would be conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal physical changes designed to reduce libido, known as "chemical castration".
Yea apparently it was so important to the government of Britain to dictate which consenting adults can fuck each other that they would force hormones and essentially permanent probation on a literal world-changing scientist and undeniable war hero over it
I will never recognize a government's right to tell adults what they can do with their own bodies and other consenting adults, and it's insane that there are zero governments in the entire world that can uphold the basic principle of full bodily autonomy. Death to tyrants
Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Back then it was perfectly aligned. Homosexuality was seen as a perversion in the public eye.
> Homosexuality was seen as a perversion in the public eye. Possibly, but the law was criminalising what happened in private. There's a big difference between prudish laws that ban public displays and intrusive laws that govern what consenting adults do in private.
That’s arguably a fairly modern idea. Many western European countries had laws against homosexuality (generally ~dormant) until the 80s. Until 2003, 14 US states effectively criminalised male homosexuality; see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
Lest you think this is totally confined to the past:
> In his concurring opinion [on Dobbs], Justice Clarence Thomas, wrote, "In future cases, we should reconsider all of this Court's substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell. […]”
Those would be the court cases which legalised contraception, homosexuality, and same-sex marriage across the US. It would be a mistake to think of this sort of intrusive law as purely a thing of the past; the far-right will bring them back, given half a chance.
Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago
#58What would justice have looked like for Alan Turing for his war contributions? I'm tempted to say that we should have showered him with our highest honors, that Britain should have made him a duke and a billionaire out of gratitude, and he should have had drawers full of keys to the great cities of the world. But none of that could have meaured up against just leaving the poor guy alone to pursue his own thoughts and…
What reward then for Bill Tutte who actually cold cracked a harder cipher than the one Turing supposedly cracked (He built upon earlier work by the Polish group who also made the first Bombes). What reward for Tommy Flowers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._T._Tutte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Flowers I like Turing, I like his work, but he was by no means the only genius at Bletchley.
If you want to activate even more dormant neurons: what about Konrad Zuse? Every CS course's history segment mentions Turing and (sometimes) Church while this man's only crime is having been on the wrong side of history and his reward being relegated to the margins of said history.
Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago
#59Interesting to note that the Justice Minister Lord McNally didn't consider a pardon appropriate, but the Queen eventually pardoned Turing after an outpouring of public support (and with the advice of the Government) [0]. (Turing was convicted for committing homosexual acts. Based on my cursory reading it seems like it was one of the reasons why he likely committed suicide. It's a tragic story of a great man, whom we…
It is far from certain that he committed suicide: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18561092 IIRC part of the coroner's reasoning is that "In a man of his type, one never knows what his mental processes are going to do next." So essentially they concluded it was suicide because something about Turing (gay? academic? gay academic?) was regarded as indicating instability. I very much doubt a coroner today wo…
Bear in mind he was given hormones. As I'm from that half of the population who experiences hormone fluctuations but it's part of what women expect so we know about this and plan for it and support each other, I'd not be surprised if he was unaware of how his emotional state might be affected.
Having said that, I'd like to see research on emotional states in male to female transitions, we should have plenty of data?
Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm fine with Turing being a hero or a role model. But people are now writing that Turing was castrated for being gay. > following his indecency conviction, and had nothing directly to do with his security clearance. It had nothing directly to do with his being gay. You can be gay without starting relationships with homeless boys and getting your house broken into, exposing yourself to blackmail or coercion.
> It had nothing directly to do with his being gay. Do you really (personally) believe that? You don't think his gayness was a factor at all? Seeing the way he was treated by law enforcement, particularly after the facts started coming to light, I can't believe it wasn't a factor. His final charge may have been more for the classified info risk as you say (I honestly don't know enough about the details to have an opi…
> You don't think his gayness was a factor at all?
It was a factor, but not directly. I believe Turing's gayness is being pink washed. The way I see it, the UK was not castrating people for being gay, but gave this option after breaking indecency laws and being convicted for it.
> particularly after the facts started coming to light
Turing went to police to file a report and casually (perhaps ignorantly or haughtily) admitted to breaking a law.