Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Alan Turing died 70 years ago

en.wikipedia.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 142 posts

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#61

Post by ciiu »

telesilla wrote: post #59
graemep wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is far from certain that he committed suicide: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18561092 IIRC part of the coroner's reasoning is that "In a man of his type, one never knows what his mental processes are going to do next." So essentially they concluded it was suicide because something about Turing (gay? academic? gay academic?) was regarded as indicating instability. I very much doubt a coroner today wo…

Bear in mind he was given hormones. As I'm from that half of the population who experiences hormone fluctuations but it's part of what women expect so we know about this and plan for it and support each other, I'd not be surprised if he was unaware of how his emotional state might be affected. Having said that, I'd like to see research on emotional states in male to female transitions, we should have plenty of data?

> Having said that, I'd like to see research on emotional states in male to female transitions, we should have plenty of data?

According to subreddits that the MtFs use, it's mostly sexual arousal. "Euphoria boners" and suchlike.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#62

Post by [deleted] »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #55
blue_light_man wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume Alan Turing actually cares about what a bunch of British politicians think of him and the award they choose to give him. You believe he cares about external validation and things like awards. You believe he cares about being a billionaire. You are more or less projecting your beliefs and ideas on what a successful life is on him. Alan pursued truth throughout his life. Not external validations. He was a sc…

it’s okay to idealize people, but don’t take away their humanity. Turing might not have been exactly like you, but he was human and not a robot. He wanted the same sort of things that you do.

[deleted]

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#63

Post by freedomben »

allsummer wrote: post #60
freedomben wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It had nothing directly to do with his being gay. Do you really (personally) believe that? You don't think his gayness was a factor at all? Seeing the way he was treated by law enforcement, particularly after the facts started coming to light, I can't believe it wasn't a factor. His final charge may have been more for the classified info risk as you say (I honestly don't know enough about the details to have an opi…

> You don't think his gayness was a factor at all? It was a factor, but not directly. I believe Turing's gayness is being pink washed. The way I see it, the UK was not castrating people for being gay, but gave this option after breaking indecency laws and being convicted for it. > particularly after the facts started coming to light Turing went to police to file a report and casually (perhaps ignorantly or haughtily)…

> Turing went to police to file a report and casually (perhaps ignorantly or haughtily) admitted to breaking a law.

Yes I agree, but (and I'm honestly asking because I don't know) was it one of those laws that nobody really took seriously or that was still on the books even though it was never enforced? Or was it a crime that was enforced at the time?

Edit: Unrelated to above, but from parent comment, I hadn't heard of "pink washing" before so just dropping a link for others who might not have heard of it either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkwashing_(LGBT)

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#64

Post by dxdm »

allsummer wrote: post #43
dxdm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He was not castrated for being gay, but for a relationship with an Eastern European 19-year old homeless man, and getting his house broken into, while having a security clearance and access to secret information. Assuming this is true (I don't know), would a heterosexual man have received the same punishment? In any case, it seems pretty cruel and unusual to me.

A heterosexual 40-year-old man with top-level security clearance, access to sensitive information, and the skill set of Turing, getting involved with Eastern European strays, at the start of the Cold War, possibly compromising himself, would not have received the same punishment, but likely would not have been spared jail time. Cruel? From the lens of modern times, certainly. But don't we still chemically castrate ce…

> A heterosexual ... would not have received the same punishment, but likely would not have been spared jail time.

I don't know if we can make the assumption that it was his being gay that spared him the jail time, or if other considerations were at play; and if another man benefiting from the same considerations but with different preferences would have been treated (edit: clarifying) more leniently, i.e. no chemical castration, as you say. And together with the following:

> But don't we still chemically castrate certain sex offenders?

This goes back to the view back then of homosexuality as sexual (and criminal?) deviance. I feel like we're pretty much back at the point of his sexuality being the reason for the chemical castration.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#65

Post by freedomben »

foldr wrote: post #50
freedomben wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Al Capone was also charged with tax evasion to the fullest extent of the law, even though the gov was rarely if ever that aggressive with tax evaders. Prosecutors/law enforcement go for the charge that stands the best chance of conviction, not necessarily the one that is most accurate. Personally given how society was at that point in time, I think his gayness was a big factor in how he was treated, but there are bet…

But this is nonsense in the case of Turing. He was simply charged because he admitted to the police officer investigating the burglary that he'd had gay sex. His treatment was in line with that of other gay men of the time who were charged with similar offences (perhaps more 'lenient' if anything). What evidence do you have that there was more to the case than this? I have seen no indication that security concerns en…

I don't have "evidence" at all, other than that when the subject comes up most people say that it was kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing. I.e. if you were doing it in public there could be issues, but there was a pretty good gay community where it was kind of an open secret[1]. If you don't believe that to be accurate, please let me know!

> His treatment was in line with that of other gay men of the time who were charged with similar offences (perhaps more 'lenient' if anything).

Not challenging you, but do you or anybody have some numbers on how often this was prosecuted? It's probably impossible to say since by definition much of the activity was underground, but that doesn't match my current understanding of the environment.

[1]: as is always a risk when stating facts, there's a risk of is/ought fallacy here with people interpreting my statement of facts with what I think should be the case. I'm not saying it ought to be this way, merely that it was. I think we've made great progress in this area and I'm glad for it.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#66

Post by billyjobob »

advael wrote: post #56
croes wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not simply convicted >His probation would be conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal physical changes designed to reduce libido, known as "chemical castration".

Yea apparently it was so important to the government of Britain to dictate which consenting adults can fuck each other that they would force hormones and essentially permanent probation on a literal world-changing scientist and undeniable war hero over it I will never recognize a government's right to tell adults what they can do with their own bodies and other consenting adults, and it's insane that there are zero g…

Turing's boyfriend was 19, therefore not an adult under UK law at the time.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#67

Post by dspillett »

telesilla wrote: post #59
graemep wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is far from certain that he committed suicide: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18561092 IIRC part of the coroner's reasoning is that "In a man of his type, one never knows what his mental processes are going to do next." So essentially they concluded it was suicide because something about Turing (gay? academic? gay academic?) was regarded as indicating instability. I very much doubt a coroner today wo…

Bear in mind he was given hormones. As I'm from that half of the population who experiences hormone fluctuations but it's part of what women expect so we know about this and plan for it and support each other, I'd not be surprised if he was unaware of how his emotional state might be affected. Having said that, I'd like to see research on emotional states in male to female transitions, we should have plenty of data?

And those hormones where specifically intended as chemical castration, reducing or removing libido (or the possibility of acting upon it). I assume this is more likely to have depression as a side effect than the concoctions we use for birth control in early/mid life and treating the effects of menopause later, as it is explicitly damping physical feelings. We also understand the effects of such treatments much better today than we did back then (still not well enough, it could be argued, but definitely better) and many things prescribed back then wound be considered dangerous now, so he may have had a relatively rough ride. This is speculation of course, though with a better foundation IMO than some of the other comments in this thread…

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#68

Post by croes »

newswasboring wrote: post #11
croes wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back then it was perfectly aligned. Homosexuality was seen as a perversion in the public eye.

I think OP was talking about real morality, not perceived.

What is real morality? How do you distinguish it from perceived morality?

There is no ultimate right or wrong, it's all perception.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#69

Post by foldr »

freedomben wrote: post #65
foldr wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is nonsense in the case of Turing. He was simply charged because he admitted to the police officer investigating the burglary that he'd had gay sex. His treatment was in line with that of other gay men of the time who were charged with similar offences (perhaps more 'lenient' if anything). What evidence do you have that there was more to the case than this? I have seen no indication that security concerns en…

I don't have "evidence" at all, other than that when the subject comes up most people say that it was kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing. I.e. if you were doing it in public there could be issues, but there was a pretty good gay community where it was kind of an open secret[1]. If you don't believe that to be accurate, please let me know! > His treatment was in line with that of other gay men of the time…

It’s so easy to find information about this by googling. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38814338.amp

There’s nothing complicated about the Turing case. It was a crime at the time to have gay sex. He admitted to a police office that he’d had gay sex. This led to him being prosecuted.

I’d urge you to spend more time looking at the facts of the case and less time questioning the universally accepted narrative on the basis of what you admit is no evidence.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#70

Post by tim333 »

graemep wrote: post #23
InfiniteVortex wrote: post #2

Interesting to note that the Justice Minister Lord McNally didn't consider a pardon appropriate, but the Queen eventually pardoned Turing after an outpouring of public support (and with the advice of the Government) [0]. (Turing was convicted for committing homosexual acts. Based on my cursory reading it seems like it was one of the reasons why he likely committed suicide. It's a tragic story of a great man, whom we…

It is far from certain that he committed suicide: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18561092 IIRC part of the coroner's reasoning is that "In a man of his type, one never knows what his mental processes are going to do next." So essentially they concluded it was suicide because something about Turing (gay? academic? gay academic?) was regarded as indicating instability. I very much doubt a coroner today wo…

From that article he died of cyanide poisoning and while he as doing an experiment with that it is likely "the experiment was a ruse to disguise suicide, a scenario Turing had apparently mentioned to a friend in the past."
Post reply on HN