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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

idealista.com

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#701

Post by zrn900 »

nerdawson wrote: post #697
zrn900 wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not from the US. Even if you are not, your philosophy seems to be from there. Works out to the same. > I spent 2 years living in Spain Yeah that should have given you the past, present and future knowledge of all things about Spain. > Are you claiming that the average Spanish citizen believes that a typical person should be responsible for freeloaders rather than the government? Excellent example of how you hav…

I'm merely pointing out that you're assuming ignorance simply because I have a different opinion to you. Having lived there myself, I'd like to think I have something of an understanding of the culture. Freeloaders, admittedly a charged word, is how I'd view someone who helps themselves to something I've worked to pay for. How is that any different to a mugger stealing your phone or your wallet? After all, they're li…

> I'm merely pointing out that you're assuming ignorance simply because I have a different opinion to you

Yes. You have a different opinion than me and the majority of Spaniards. Despite that you think that you can make statements on behalf of us. There comes the ignorance.

> Freeloaders, admittedly a charged word, is how I'd view someone

Spaniards don't.

> How is that any different to a mugger stealing your phone or your wallet?

Not different, and per Spanish law, theft up to a few hundred euros is not a crime either.

> It's convenient to imagine that the only people falling victim to this are those who can afford to have their property stolen from them.

Its not 'convenient'. Its how this works. Okupa movement stakes out houses, its owners and goes after the well-off. In a lot of cases they get help from within the community, or the occupier is someone from the neighborhood already. That's what 'professional' okupas help with - by helping poor locals occupy empty houses.

Surely occasionally an unhinged persona occupies someone's only house. But that's rare. The majority of occupation happens locally through the help of activist okupas.

...

Long story short, you have no idea about the culture and society you speak of, despite having lived here for 2 years, and you are still handing out statements and interpretations based on, well, American cultural mentality actually. Spanish culture is different. Its as simple as that. The difference between these two cultures can be seen in how things are in the specific countries.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/homes-for-sale-affordable-housi...

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/13/americas-dirty-little-secret...

https://www.quora.com/Were-there-any-American-citizens-livin...

Not that the other countries that imitate the US and the capitalist mentality are any different - even Scandinavian countries started to experience major inequality after adopting 'investment friendly' practices in the last few years. Americans themselves are escaping to other countries, including Spain, to escape the hellhole that it has become and gentrifying the people there in the process. North Europeans are doing it too - which is actually becoming a problem.

So that mentality doesn't work. It f*cks up societies. Stop preaching it.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#702

Post by Dylan16807 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #698
Dylan16807 wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An individual has to be very careful not to create any real property value or improvements, otherwise it will be taken from you. This is the experience of the vast majority of renters. It's not too bad. And something like "you can own X amount of house" doesn't require going anywhere near communism.

>This is the experience of the vast majority of renters. It's not too bad. I think it is terrible. I like to be productive and crate value. Absolutely miserable without it. I hated being a renter for this reason. >And something like "you can own X amount of house" doesn't require going anywhere near communism. There are so many better ways to solve this problem than putting a cap on value creation.

> I like to be productive and crate value.

You can create value in the 99% of the world that isn't attached to your house.

Also a more conservative set of rules, like the limits I was talking about, would still let you own a house and upgrade it a lot in a way that you fully own.

> There are so many better ways to solve this problem than putting a cap on value creation.

Does "value creation" here specifically mean adding more living space?

Only a very tiny fraction of homeowner construction projects would be an issue. And if you want to do something like build a third house on your property, a rule like that would say "go ahead, but then you have to sell it when you're done". You can create tons of value and profit from it, you just can't own three houses.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#703

Post by burnished »

noduerme wrote: post #685
burnished wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theft is a violation of property laws. If you recognize that property laws are in some senses arbitrary/designed to fit a purpose (which you seem to, since you are proposing changes to them) then I think you should also recognize that treating theft as a purely black and white topic does not make sense. Not advocating for the burglary higher up the thread, still a shit thing to do so someone

Based on your definition, theft of indigenous land would be fine since there were no property laws to violate. Yet it was not fine. That's because theft is a violation of universal moral laws. Everyone knows it is wrong. Justifying it is an immoral barbarism.

I'm curious how you read that as an endorsement for that sort of behavior?

Your 'but indigenous peoples' reeks of point scoring behavior. If you wanted to explore that topic you'd be more specific. If you were engaging in good faith you might assume that I'm generally opposed to genocide. Taking an abstract point about theft and property laws to accuse me of endorsing genocide ('immoral barbarism') is not good behavior.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#704

Post by bdowling »

zrn900 wrote: post #689
bdowling wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allowing occupation of vacant properties by squatters because there isn't enough housing supply is like allowing stealing food from farms because there isn’t enough food supply. It’s demoralizing to the producers and maintainers of the resource and does not encourage further investment in the activity.

> Allowing occupation of vacant properties by squatters because there isn't enough housing supply is like allowing stealing food from farms because there isn’t enough food supply Love these religious-sounding sermons. Im telling what is happening here, a lot of 'free market' types are preaching to me that what is happening here is not happening and something else should be happening per the magic of 'free market' or…

Certainly, owners sometimes leave properties vacant, and sometimes do so for long periods, for various reasons. The housing market, however, should be big enough and robust enough to allow for some of that occurring.

Personally, I'd like there to be so much more housing that landlords have to compete with each other for who can provide the best apartment for the lowest price rather than potential tenants competing with each other for who can pay the most for the only apartment that is available.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#705

Post by carlosjobim »

bdowling wrote: post #692
carlosjobim wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it worth the major part of a full time worker's income to have somebody take care of those things in the rare occasion they happen? Most normal people can easily fix their plumbing issues, a leaky roof, termites and such in a couple of days with a few hundreds of dollars in budget. Landlords generally spend much less than 5% of their yearly rent income on maintenance. If they actually do something to improve an ap…

> that they own 100% You might be surprised to learn that many small rental properties are heavily mortgaged. Along with insurance and property taxes, the biggest cost is usually mortgage interest. Some owners even lose money for a few years until the rents rise to meet the costs so that they can break even. (These owners are playing the long game, believing that rent and property values will go up over time and even…

I'm very aware of that, which just makes it worse. You now have multiple levels of strangers that are living on your back. Landlord, banker, insurance seller.

> the biggest cost is usually mortgage interest.

The tenant is paying for that.

The situation is absurd. The tenant is paying the entire mortgage and interest for the property and can be kicked out at any time, while the landlord does basically nothing, pays nothing, and the bank can not kick him out just because they please.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#706

Post by nerdawson »

zrn900 wrote: post #701
nerdawson wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm merely pointing out that you're assuming ignorance simply because I have a different opinion to you. Having lived there myself, I'd like to think I have something of an understanding of the culture. Freeloaders, admittedly a charged word, is how I'd view someone who helps themselves to something I've worked to pay for. How is that any different to a mugger stealing your phone or your wallet? After all, they're li…

> I'm merely pointing out that you're assuming ignorance simply because I have a different opinion to you Yes. You have a different opinion than me and the majority of Spaniards. Despite that you think that you can make statements on behalf of us. There comes the ignorance. > Freeloaders, admittedly a charged word, is how I'd view someone Spaniards don't. > How is that any different to a mugger stealing your phone or…

I live in a country of people with diverse views. I feel it's ignorant to assume that I'm speaking on behalf of the majority of my fellow citizens.

Quoted from the article:

> Public opinion on squatting is polarised, with some viewing it as a necessary response to systemic failures that leave citizens without affordable housing options. Others see it as an infringement on property rights and a challenge to the rule of law.

If you're actually fine with theft, again going back to the mugging example, we simply couldn't be further apart in our views. I would be curious to know if you're a homeowner but honestly, I don't think either of us are going to gain anything from delving any deeper with this discussion.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#708

Post by tomjakubowski »

ruiseal wrote: post #295
jmcb wrote: post #141

There is no such "okupas problem" in Spain. If someone enter your dwelling (don't really know if is the correct term in English. In Spanish the house where you actually live is called "morada"), you can call the police and they will evict whoever is in the house in less than 24 hours. Other topic is holiday residences; those are not dwelling ("morada") so, in Spain, the right to have a dwelling is on the top of priva…

If you own a second property and decide to rent it out and your tenant decides to stop paying rent you're fucked. Until they get an eviction notice from a court, which can take more than a year, you have to keep paying utilities for them. Nor can you change the locks. If the okupa has children you're even more fucked. Considering how many desokupa services exist I'd say it's a real problem.

> Until they get an eviction notice from a court, which can take more than a year, you have to keep paying utilities for them

After the eviction takes place, how badly does an eviction on record hurt the renter's ability to rent in the future? Just trying to understand the asymmetry of costs for the landlord and renter in this situation where the renter "decides" to stop paying rent

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#709

Post by tomjakubowski »

rightbyte wrote: post #183
ssijak wrote: post #33

This is pure madness. So you have 48 hours after squatting started to report it and potentially get a fast eviction (why is it not an automatic criminal case for breaking into the property is beyond me). But after 48 hours it seems like it becomes a nightmare. So if you are on a business trip for 3 days or visiting parents in a different city or vacationing for a few days and somebody enters your home, you are out of…

The laws are written in such a way to protect tenants from landlords. A shady landlord will just claim the tenants are squatters.

tenants with a signed lease, a record of rent payments, correspondence with the shady landlord, etc. can simply show them in court and prove otherwise?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#710

Post by tomjakubowski »

lottin wrote: post #523
em500 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries especially in continental Europe have strong pro-tenant rights. Often the rent contract cannot be terminated by the landlord, only by the tenant, which can make it more profitable to leave property empty vs renting it out. (When a tenant-occupied property is sold, the new owner in some countries cannot terminate an existing rent contract, which makes the property less valuable on the market vs empty pr…

Yes, I understand that selling a rented property can be less profitable than selling a property without a rent contract. But holding on to a property that generates no income is even less profitable.

On an abandoned property, the land may appreciate faster than the improvements depreciate. As long as that pace exceeds the mortgage interest (if any) and property tax (ibid), it's profitable. There are other possible complications too which might swing it, like income tax deductions.

Sometimes seemingly abandoned buildings are used for one-off occasions which generate income: downtown LA is full of "historic" buildings which the owners allow to dilapidate outside of a few areas they can rent out once or twice a year to a film crew.

edit: another thing -- rich people procrastinate too, in fact many of them can afford to procrastinate on matters like this, and they may rather take a loss than confront the anxiety and work of selling or renting out the property

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