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Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

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Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#351

Post by Aerbil313 »

jandrese wrote: post #52
rched wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense to me. Apple does nothing to prevent AAA games on the App Store also being released on Steam. I think it’s more likely that the GPTK license is to encourage developers to make high quality native ports rather than devs checking a box to make their game available on Mac.

For whatever reason Steam just doesn't seem very popular with Mac users. In the latest Hardware survey Mac users were outnumbered by Linux users by 50%. https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

From what I’ve seen, for some reason, the people who buy a Mac are not the people who game. College students buying for schoolwork, business people buying for (I assume?) excellent battery life and resulting portability, and graphics/video/music creators. The two Venn circles just don’t overlap.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#352

Post by troupo »

talldayo wrote: post #329
troupo wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Admit that Metal isn't enough. By what criteria? > People were more willing to write a DirectX translation framework for Vulkan than Mac users were willing to write one for Metal. There were significantly more games playable on Mac than for Linux for years, even after Vulkan's introduction. Apple hurt gaming on Mac by dropping 32-bit support and changing CPU architectures significantly more than any fantasy about n…

> By what criteria? ...games? Isn't that what we're talking about? How Apple suffers from spurning the gaming industry, and does absolutely nothing to improve the scenario? > There were significantly more games playable on Mac than for Linux for years > Apple hurt gaming on Mac by dropping 32-bit support and changing CPU architectures significantly more than any fantasy about not supporting Vulkan Oh, well this is ju…

> ...games? Isn't that what we're talking about?

I'm struggling to remember when Apple last truly cared about gaming on Macs

> How Apple suffers from spurning the gaming industry

Ah yes. Apple truly deeply suffers. In which reality?

> Oh, well this is just wrong. Box86 had "solved" the x86 -> ARM translation path before Apple Silicon even existed, albeit slowly

1. No idea what Box86 is

2. Slowly means it didn't solve it

3. The actual reality and not some fantasy is that after dropping 32bit support hundreds of games otherwise supported on Macs became unavailable/unplayable on Steam.

There were literally significantly more games available for Macs than for Linux. Even after Vulkan was released. The parity changed only after Valve released Proton(2018) and MacOS dropped support for 32-bit apps (2019).

Come on, this is not some ancient history. This happened just 5 years ago. I, a gamer, lived through it. And was basically forced to go ahead and myself a Windows PC because I couldn't game on the Mac anymore. And this had nothing to do with Metal, or Apple not supporting Vulkan.

> Asahi supports Vulkan 1.3, MacOS does not.

Neither does Xbox, or Playstation, or the iPhone. Windows only has native support for DirectX and delegates Vulkan support to the GPU vendors.

There's also Android where support became mandatory in 2019, and Switch (no idea when they added support, but I've seen people mention you should go to the native SDK and skip Vulkan for performance).

Truly an amazing API that so few platforms or even developers people care about: https://carette.xyz/posts/state_of_vulkan_2024/

> Before Steam, there was no incentive to develop it.

Steam was released in September 2003

Vulkan 1.0 was released in February 2016

People going out of their way to root for Vulkan seem to have a very tenuous grasp on reality, or recent history, or both.

> And look; if Steam goes rogue and decides to drop support for all platforms but Android Wear

All this is beside the point, or is even orthogonal to the point. The only reason Proton exists, and works as well as it does, is because Valve sees business value in it. That's it.

Had Valve seen business value in having a translation layer for DX->Metal, we would've had it as well. They don't (for good business reasons), and the amazing opensource community bitches about Apple instead of doing the work that they couldn't be arsed to do in the first place.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#353

Post by elabajaba »

ricardojoaoreis wrote: post #257
rowanG077 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ton of games which don't require dxvk are running at 60+ FPS. See https://vt.social/@lina/112524118075585601 Alyssa, the machine that she is, has also been working on improving FEX performance recently.

Alyssa did some work for Valve, they might have an interest in FEX for some ARM version of Proton. Good thing that we can all benefit from it

She left Collabora last year and now works for Valve as a contractor.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#354

Post by astrange »

saagarjha wrote: post #303
astrange wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need indoor hobbies when the weather is this nice.

It's the warmest first week of June in a while in Cupertino, so I have no idea what you're talking about with regards to nice weather.

Well, Apple employees don't actually live in Cupertino.

(I once went to a city council meeting where residents showed up and complained that new housing might allow Apple employees to live there and that they might be "too poor". Probably would be too.)

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#355

Post by saagarjha »

astrange wrote: post #354
saagarjha wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the warmest first week of June in a while in Cupertino, so I have no idea what you're talking about with regards to nice weather.

Well, Apple employees don't actually live in Cupertino. (I once went to a city council meeting where residents showed up and complained that new housing might allow Apple employees to live there and that they might be "too poor". Probably would be too.)

If you're not living in Cupertino you're not doing enough spontaneous collaboration

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#356

Post by verticalscaler »

dieortin wrote: post #337
talldayo wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple also offers a D3D12 porting toolkit now Now they do. After 5 years of people begging them for DXVK, Apple gives us... a downstream fork of DXVK retooled for Metal. I really just feel bad for Mac owners. Like; you could be playing Apex Legends with us, but can't. Like I said, these changes to Asahi will likely make it easier than MacOS to play games on. Who would use MacOS for gaming when Steam Play works out-…

I doubt anyone buys a Mac to install Asahi on it

Why not? The hardware is better than a Thinkpad or anything else I can think of. Only thing keeping me from running Asahi full time is battery/sleep. Hopefully they figure that out this year.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#357

Post by SleepyMyroslav »

pjmlp wrote: post #280
SleepyMyroslav wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

minor nitpick: did care when Google Stadia was in the list. But it did not worked out and everyone took a big L on that and now Vulkan support has been mostly purged already.

The reason why Stadia is no more, is exactly because they don't care. Google was starting to offer a DirectX porting kit on the same year they decided to ramp down Stadia, there is even a GDC talk on it.

My opinion on the facts I saw don't agree with your interpretation. No one here on HN cares about it =) so I just drop it.

My hot take is that when AAA games will be shipped on mac os they will not use porting kit in runtime and just call Metal. Imho API court battles are fun to watch from afar.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#358

Post by pjmlp »

talldayo wrote: post #345
pjmlp wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that Google, AMD and Intel have more than enough time since 2009, to provide a developer experience, and drivers, that would make people actually use OpenCL instead of CUDA. Instead, Google created the proprietary Renderscript for Android, while AMD and Intel kept delivering broken drivers, partial implementations of OpenCL, never delivered a proper OpenCL 2.x implemenation with mature C++ support, IDE…

It wasn't Google, AMD and Intel's job to improve the developer experience. You can chew them out for bad drivers, but they did improve and now AMD and Intel's OpenCL implementations are the reference-quality ones. Again, you can blame everyone else for doing their own thing but the project only has one father that could estrange it. Apple's blindness killing OpenCL makes everything in Microsoft and Google's graveyard…

Sure little dreamer, blame NVidia and Apple for Intel, Google and AMD incompetency.

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#359

Post by greenduck1 »

astrange wrote: post #216
shmerl wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that stop Apple from supporting Vulkan on their system? It is pure political sabotaging. And you can't pull any excuses like "it requires effort". Apple have pools of cash to do the right thing for users and developers. They simply very intentionally oppose it due to their dinosaur lock-in mentality.

A blog post is different from a real compliant commercial implementation. Other reasons you couldn't do it include eg someone with a patent on it won't license it to you.

> A blog post is different from a real compliant commercial implementation.

honeykrisp is already a "real conformant" implementation and is listed on Khronos's website already.

https://www.khronos.org/conformance/adopters/conformant-prod...

Re: Vulkan1.3 on the M1 in one month

#360

Post by rowanG077 »

dieortin wrote: post #337
talldayo wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple also offers a D3D12 porting toolkit now Now they do. After 5 years of people begging them for DXVK, Apple gives us... a downstream fork of DXVK retooled for Metal. I really just feel bad for Mac owners. Like; you could be playing Apex Legends with us, but can't. Like I said, these changes to Asahi will likely make it easier than MacOS to play games on. Who would use MacOS for gaming when Steam Play works out-…

I doubt anyone buys a Mac to install Asahi on it

I did. And it's the first laptop I'm happy with in terms of power.
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