Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

idealista.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

541–550 of 930 posts

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#541

Post by nerdawson »

zrn900 wrote: post #500
nerdawson wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that's the intent of the policy. The actual outcome on the other hand harms people who are using their properties. - Holidays lets - Standard lets where there's a changeover - Properties for sale - Your own home when you're on holiday Your comment is completely disconnected from the reality of the situation facing ordinary middle-class people. Maybe you could argue that squatters need support but subsidising…

> The actual outcome The actual outcome is that the policy does force people to use their houses and increase the available rental houses. > ordinary middle-class people. You seem to have meant 'working-class'. Outside the US nobody calls them 'middle class'. Middle class people in Spain would be white collar professionals who own more than one house. You people are literally making up things about a country that you…

> You people are literally making up things about a country that you don't know about.

I’m not from the US.

I spent 2 years living in Spain.

Are you claiming that the average Spanish citizen believes that a typical person should be responsible for freeloaders rather than the government?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#542

Post by narag »

This is outrageous and now it's a political talking point for the right, because the left uses it as a matter of "activism" from the "grassroot" movements that celebrate their spoils, at the same time they deny the problem exists at all from their ministries.

But let me remind you: from 2011 to 2018 Spain was NOT governed by the left, but by the Partido Popular with this guy as prime minister:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariano_Rajoy

This moron didn't move a finger to solve the problem, that was already a thing. That's how things work over here: unless there's a massive public outrage, politicians do nothing.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#543

Post by lukan »

Manuel_D wrote: post #340
ncruces wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and then the 80yo people living in a centenary house in a gentrified neighborhood suddenly get a 10x tax increase because the next door building got sold to be remodeled as a luxury condo, and drove property values through the roof. That's good, because if they can't pay, their house is up for remodelling too. /sarcasm

If the property tax goes up by 10x, then that 80 year old couple has seen a 10x return on their real estate investment. They can easily take out a reverse mortgage to pay the property tax for the rest of their lives.

"They can easily take out a reverse mortgage to pay the property tax for the rest of their lives."

Not everyone can do that easily. I would not know how that works and where are the downsides. I can learn it, sure, but for an 80 year old this would be real stress, having to figure unknown contracts out - and not getting cheated. Old people are a prime target for frauds for a reason.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#544

Post by carlosjobim »

zrn900 wrote: post #506
Wytwwww wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> use their real estate instead of letting them rot Or not to invest into it in the first places which results in even lower supply of housing long-term. > value appreciation House prices in Spain haven't yet recovered to their pre 2009 levels. If adjusted by inflation they are still 35% lower so I'm not sure if its necessarily the soundest long-term investment.

> Or not to invest into it in the first places which results in even lower supply of housing long-term Even better - the state can easily construct subsidized housing and make housing even more available. No need to rely on private profiteers for housing. > House prices in Spain haven't yet recovered to their pre 2009 levels A lot of things in the world have not recovered to their pre 2008 levels. That doesn't mean t…

> Even better - the state can easily construct subsidized housing and make housing even more available.

You don't even need the glorious state for that. Most normally gifted people can construct their own house by themselves with some help from friends and a some hired professionals for certain things.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#545

Post by _jplc »

tiborsaas wrote: post #351

A friend of mine acquired an investment property in Spain and after a while okupas moved in, lock changed etc. A woman with two children. They were clearly helped with an organized team to get into that place. The sad resolution after lots of headache and thinking was to pay the invaders the 5000EUR they demanded to move out. There was some followup information about what happened after this. She was picked up by a c…

[flagged]

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#546

Post by Wytwwww »

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #508
Wytwwww wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are revolutionaries who want to abolish the class society Also, apparently the construction of new housing and maintenance of older stock. So that we would be living in abandoned ruins and huts in a few decades if they got their way...

Anarchist Catalonia had an economic growth during it's short existence during the Spanish Civil War and it operated on those types of property norms, so this falsifies your argument.

> falsifies your argument

Not really. Also could we please stick to the Hackernews guidelines?

> Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. ... > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#547

Post by bdowling »

zrn900 wrote: post #460
peter335 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these are understandable and well intended questions! But they also makes it seem like you're not very familiar with standard economic analysis. I would encourage you to read The Rent is Too Damn High by Yglesias which is by an american (leftist) who I think has a much better set of ideas for improving the lives of renters than "occupation friendly" housing regulations and other "zero sum" ideas. And yes, buy…

The difference is that those occupation friendly laws work and force real estate owners to actually rent out their properties rather than let them sit empty to appreciate value. Whereas the ideas of a person that only exist in a book are just ideas that exist in a book.

Allowing occupation of vacant properties by squatters because there isn't enough housing supply is like allowing stealing food from farms because there isn’t enough food supply. It’s demoralizing to the producers and maintainers of the resource and does not encourage further investment in the activity.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#548

Post by lukan »

RyanHamilton wrote: post #328
ncruces wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, and then the 80yo people living in a centenary house in a gentrified neighborhood suddenly get a 10x tax increase because the next door building got sold to be remodeled as a luxury condo, and drove property values through the roof. That's good, because if they can't pay, their house is up for remodelling too. /sarcasm

I'm open to being wrong but I believe the data shows, old people in the UK are living in houses that are too large and receiving pensions that rise with inflation whilst "young people" are paying huge rents, can't afford to buy and are stuck with huge student debt. Why shouldn't the old couple move to let 10x apartments be built? Or does the data show differently?

"Why shouldn't the old couple move to let 10x apartments be built?"

Imagine you worked all your life and now you just want to enjoy your peace in your home for your last years. You really would not want to move and I am very against driving old people out of their homes, even though I am one of those young people with a small apartment also seeing empty and unused space everywhere.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#549

Post by TotalCrackpot »

Wytwwww wrote: post #546
TotalCrackpot wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchist Catalonia had an economic growth during it's short existence during the Spanish Civil War and it operated on those types of property norms, so this falsifies your argument.

> falsifies your argument Not really. Also could we please stick to the Hackernews guidelines? > Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. ... > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

Could you elaborate why I am not sticking to those guidelines?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#550

Post by TotalCrackpot »

diggan wrote: post #530
horns4lyfe wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s someone in this thread arguing exactly for squatters right for another’s primary residence, barring their ability to organize some kind self defense. Didn’t sound great

As always, there are extremists on both sides, that's no lie. Generally, most people aren't so extreme as to say private ownership shouldn't exist at all. At least from most of the people I interact with here in Barcelona. Besides what people think is right/wrong, the police does help you (quickly) to throw out people that try to invade your residence that you actively live in.

Calling people you disagree with extremists is just an insult and it's not nice. It's rude. There is nothing extremists about fighting for a world where no one is oppressed and everyone can develop to the heights of one's potential.
Post reply on HN