Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#461

Post by nerdawson » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 4:41 PM UTC

zrn900 wrote: post #448

nerdawson wrote: post #342

I have family who let out property in Spain. They, along with other people in a similar position to them, have all suddenly become experts in smart home tech. They have video doorbells, motion sensors, door sensors, etc. All so that they can be alerted to any activity immediately, allowing them to act within the exceptionally short eviction window. The reality on the ground is that these ridiculous policies are widel…

Yep. Those policies that force the real estate owners to use their properties instead of letting them sit empty and appreciate for profit like in the US are ridiculous. The not-ridiculous policy is allowing them to cripple the entire society for profit by doing the opposite. It works very well. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/homes-for-sale-affordable-housi...

Perhaps that's the intent of the policy. The actual outcome on the other hand harms people who are using their properties.

- Holidays lets - Standard lets where there's a changeover - Properties for sale - Your own home when you're on holiday

Your comment is completely disconnected from the reality of the situation facing ordinary middle-class people.

Maybe you could argue that squatters need support but subsidising them is the role of the state, not a job for individual citizens.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#462

Post by TotalCrackpot » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 4:43 PM UTC

Wytwwww wrote: post #453

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homelessness is a problem, even having to pay rent to another person to have a place to live is a problem. Squatting is just a strategy to fight an inherently oppressive private property norm.

> even having to pay rent to another I'm curious how would you expect housing to stock to grow or even stay stable if nobody had to pay rent? Would all housing be used owned by the state and assigned to individuals based on certain criteria (with huge amounts of inefficiency and corruption that such a system creates)?

It could grow either by people making their own houses on their own, or by them finding others who would help with this process, or by paying someone for the labor required for the house to get build.

I think that private property should not get nationalized.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#463

Post by TotalCrackpot » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 4:44 PM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #413

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a free shelter is fundamental to a person's freedom, arguing otherwise is immoral.

You can't have a freedom that's conditional on somebody else's forced labour.

It's not conditional of somebody else's forced labor, why do you think that?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#464

Post by diggan » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 4:44 PM UTC

Pelayu wrote: post #458

I see a lot of people here claiming that the okupas only affect landlords and banks. Here for example is an article in Spanish that tells the account of an 82-year old pensioner who's house was taken from him (occupied) while he was out visiting a friend in hospital. https://www.antena3.com/noticias/sociedad/vuelve-hospital-vi... I myself have also heard from friends in various cities in Spain of neighbour's apartmen…

That particular example shows the difference between what happens when a occupation of a primary residence has happened, and when a occupation happens in other properties.

In the case you put, the guy called the police, and the police threw them out. What more can you want? Seems the system works perfectly fine, in that case, because it was his home, the squatters have no rights, so the police threw them out immediately as soon as he called the local police. How is the laws "lax" in this case, when the police has the authority to get rid of them?

No one is arguing for squatters right for other's primary residence. The division comes when you start talking about properties that are bought/owned for the sole purpose of speculation.

For others who might not know Spanish, here is a translation of the part where the trespassers (not occupiers/"okupas", as that's a different thing than what happened here) gets thrown out:

> He assures that he panicked: “I started to have an anxiety attack, I don't even know how I had the strength to call the local police... on the phone they told me to calm down”.

> The man, 82 years old, tells a team of Antena 3 Noticias that the agents arrived very quickly and tried to negotiate with the “squatters” , without success. “They asked me for permission to break down the door, and I said yes!”, and adds, “The police acted very quickly and I am very grateful to the agents”. Emotionally, he narrates, “That something like that happens to you and they sink your life, I would have stayed outside with my two little dogs.”

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#465

Post by Manuel_D » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 4:44 PM UTC

harperlee wrote: post #418

Manuel_D wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens when people leave the rental market? Fewer apartments for rent. And what happens to rental prices when there's a scarcity of apartments to rent? Prices go up.

Well, no one can pack the apartment and leave the country. At worst they are left unoccupied, but that's a lot of money to have it parked, and can be discouraged with taxes; so alternatively people sell them... so buy and rent eventually go down.

And what will the buyers do with the apartments? Rent them? Well, then they'll either have to spend money on security or price the risk of okupas into the rent. In either case rent goes up.

This is as nonsensical as the proposals in San Francisco to prohibit the construction of apartments to try and reduce rent. Dissuading people from renting out apartments reduces the supply apartments. There is zero possibility this results in better rental prices.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#466

Post by TotalCrackpot » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 4:45 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #411

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a free shelter is fundamental to a person's freedom, arguing otherwise is immoral.

And who has to build that shelter, and what about their freedom?

No one has to build that shelter, no one should be coerced to that.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#467

Post by Wytwwww » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 4:45 PM UTC

zrn900 wrote: post #383

rudnevr wrote: post #264

I live in Spain and own property in Spain. There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. Eve…

> There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. Both of those groups serve the purpose of forcing the real estate owners to actually use their real estate instead of letti…

> use their real estate instead of letting them rot

Or not to invest into it in the first places which results in even lower supply of housing long-term.

> value appreciation

House prices in Spain haven't yet recovered to their pre 2009 levels. If adjusted by inflation they are still 35% lower so I'm not sure if its necessarily the soundest long-term investment.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#468

Post by zrn900 » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 4:47 PM UTC

peter335 wrote: post #333

jorvi wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently there is a hard limit on how many properties per year can be built due to lack of construction workers + training positions for new workers + being sure of work in the next decade(s) due to economic cycles. Since the factor limiting supply is not cost or demand, prices keep ever-increasing with no gains for society; just filling the coffers of the haves. You should really watch out with insults of economic…

I stand by my characterization, this comment is symptomatic of the same problem. That a country with high unemployment has the nr of workers in the construction sector as the major limitation in construction of new housing seems very implausible. What about zoning laws? To the extent a country with high unemployment can’t find enough construction workers it’s likely to be some kind of government/regulatory failure. R…

> That a country with high unemployment has the nr of workers in the construction sector as the major limitation in construction of new housing seems very implausible

The rest of the world is not the US, and people don't have to work for dimes in jobs that can go away the next day just because they would starve or cant afford healthcare if they don't. As a result, people prefer stable jobs. If that sounds implausible to you, it is a sign of how perverted the mentality of your society has become that you expect people to be like disposable lemmings that will pour out to whatever pays them some money.

> What about zoning laws? To the extent a country with high unemployment can’t find enough construction workers it’s likely to be some kind of government/regulatory failure. Read Matthew Yglesias, he’s great

You don't know anything about the country that you speak about. You are referring to an American who has his ideas existing only in various books. Dont make holistic statements without knowing enough about what you are talking about. In this case, an entirely different country and society.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#469

Post by Wytwwww » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 4:47 PM UTC

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #389

rudnevr wrote: post #264

I live in Spain and own property in Spain. There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. Eve…

Is the worst you could say about anarchists is that they smoke weed? That's somewhat funny, please consider that for anarchists implementing their property norm of usufruct is a part of the social revolution through direct action, it's not really meant to me nice to the "middle class" because anarchists are revolutionaries who want to abolish the class society :)

> are revolutionaries who want to abolish the class society

Also, apparently the construction of new housing and maintenance of older stock.

So that we would be living in abandoned ruins and huts in a few decades if they got their way...

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#470

Post by diggan » Thu, Jun 06, 2024, 4:50 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #408

madeofpalk wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying a house and purposefully leaving it empty is immoral, sqatting or not.

Better not leave for work or anywhere else then.

Worth looking up the difference between trespassing on property someone actively lives in, and "okupas" occupying otherwise empty buildings.

Once you understand the difference, you'd understand that you can continue living your life like normal :)